Sell Without Selling (Shannyn Lee)

Welcome to the podcast, Shannon. I am so excited to have you on here. Thank you, Gail. I am too. I’ve been looking forward to this, so thanks for having me on. it’s my pleasure. Well, we met in a mastermind, and it has been a lot of fun. And I have found out what great expertise you have in an area that I think will be great for our listeners today, which is sales, especially for people in the services business. Yes.

I can’t wait to talk about that. But first, I have to ask you a few questions that are a little bit personal, and I would love to hear about these. And we asked this question about what your biggest life lesson was. Why don’t you share with us what you shared? So I have to remember honestly what I shared, but I’ll tell you what I think I shared. Okay.

There’s a lot of life lessons, but I know one that made a big impact on me was when I was fired from a job. And it definitely was humbling, but also lit a fire. And what I mean by that was it caused me to take a hard look at who I was and what I was doing and where I belonged. And I did not let myself give in to the story that I had failed.

I reframed it for myself because I do think that was the truth. And the truth was it wasn’t the right fit. I shouldn’t have been there. They probably shouldn’t have hired me. And it was a beautiful moment in a lot of ways because it caused me to really just think hard about where do I add value? Where do I want to be? And that really started a journey for me that ended up at win without pitching eventually. But it started a journey for me where I went to work for small to medium sized independently owned businesses and left.

corporate America, which I wouldn’t have traded that experience on the corporate side, but I certainly figured out what my unique ability was after that. Well, I think sometimes it’s important to have those setbacks because if we had it all going so well, I don’t think we would learn the lessons that we really are here to learn. 100%. I am unafraid of failure, of setbacks,

hard conversations, like it just changed so much for me in that moment. And so it was a good thing in the end. Well, that’s an interesting comment that you bring up about having the hard conversations. I was just having a conversation with another client this week about hard conversations and I still struggle with it. tell me your secret to doing that. You know, it’s a really good question and I don’t know for sure if I’ve landed on why it’s

okay for me or why it feels comfortable for me. But I think it has something to do with a combination of life experience, a combination of just trusting myself and knowing what’s right and finding the right words to convey that to somebody that that honestly come with a lot of love and a lot of care. Like I really believe in empathy and vulnerability in life and in the professional setting. And I think if we’re just really focused on

the greater good and this idea of an abundance mindset. When something feels hard, I think we should be able to talk through it. And I did have a boss at a previous job tell me one time that it’s almost like climbing a mountain or having a baby. She said, like, it’s scary and the moment is going to come and it might cause you, this is what she said, it was so like visual. It might cause you to just kind of feel like you have to throw up.

But the minute you start talking, everything is okay. The minute you start climbing, everything is okay. The minute labor starts and you’re having that baby, everything is okay. So it funny analogies I know, but it really like struck me as yeah, it might feel hard in the moment, but the minute you get going, it’ll work itself out. I think too what happens, I know for me, if I’m pushing myself and I haven’t done something before or it seems uncomfortable to do, I probably should do it because I’m going to learn from that. And it’s

hard to overcome that resistance to doing that, making that leap from wherever you are, which is a status quo to something that’s going to be probably a hugely important learning lesson for you in life, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I think it’s okay to practice a little and think a little bit about what that hard conversation is going to be and how you might handle it. So you’re just a little more prepared.

And then I think you don’t want to overthink it. It’s time to just take action. that’s another really good topic too, which is following that gut instinct about what to do. And I think sometimes we take that away from, or we quit doing it because we feel as if we should follow a process or do things a certain way or somebody has taught us a certain way. But in the end, I think that gut instinct, don’t you, is really critical.

Trust your gut. It is really critical and I agree with you that most of us don’t give ourselves enough credit for trusting our gut instinct. And after years of coaching and working with lots and lots of clients, they are smart and they have good instincts and I see it in them. And I see it as they’re working through a problem and talking it out. And in most cases, I’m just raising my hand saying, you actually know what to do here. You just need to trust your gut and…

and be unafraid to say what you need to say. So I think we all need to listen to ourselves a little more. that’s well said. Well, and because you’re teaching how to sell without really being salesy, I think it’s so interesting that we as individuals tend to maybe have a poor feeling about people that are in sales, which is unfortunate because we all sell every day.

We sell our ideas, we sell what we want, if we’re trying to talk our spouse into doing something that maybe they didn’t think about or didn’t know they wanted to do. So we want to sell them on our ideas so that we’re getting them to do what we want them to do. So I don’t think it’s a bad word. So talk to me about sales. Why did you get so interested in that? Yeah, I kind of fell into what I guess is considered a more

formal sales role, but you’re right that I’d been selling all my life in various forms. And I really view selling as a mechanism for helping and as a mechanism for change. And again, it comes down to how are you framing this for yourself? And is it coming from a place of good? Like, I really think we should be using our power for good in the sale and can we help these clients? And so for me, it happened at that moment when

corporate America ended and the design firm that I had hired to create the annual report for this company that I was working for said, hey, why don’t you come and sell for us? And I just thought that is wild. I don’t know what that means, but I love the culture there. I love what you do. I love being around that creative personality and mindset. So yes, and then I’ll figure it out later. So it was a jump moment and a trust my gut moment. And they had a really

values-driven approach to selling, which was just about that. Like, can we help? Let’s have a conversation and uncover things and see if we can help. And that felt really good to me. Well, interestingly, you and I connected again through the mastermind group that we were in. And you became my mentor for the session and the block, which I thought was really fabulous because

You just happen to have some experience in our industry. How random is that? Yeah, it was amazing. Maybe it was intentional. Maybe they knew. I don’t know. They probably did. Well, I was so thrilled about it. And so I feel like we’ve I’ve met a new friend. And what I love, too, is that you have worked with other design firms to help them know how to sell at a I think in a more professional way.

So talk to me about that and talk to me about some of the things that you’ve done to help people learn how to navigate this because it is navigating something that’s not comfortable. definitely. Yeah. The work that we do at Win Without Pitching is focused on that, what we call expert-based advisor, creative professional. And that can mean traditional design advertising, but we do a lot of work with interior design, architecture.

financial advisors. it’s experts who need to understand that it is okay to sell and price like the experts that they are and bring their expert selves into the sale and not feel like they have to turn into a salesperson. It’s a combination of understanding our clients mindset, what motivates them, are they motivated by the need to be liked?

Do they want to win? They’re really competitive. Kind of understanding where their mindset is and why that mindset can sometimes cause them to feel uncomfortable in a sales cycle or do things they wish they wouldn’t do in a sales cycle. So it really begins there, understanding mindset which drives behavior. And then giving them frameworks for the different conversations that happen in the sales. So a framework for how do you qualify? How do you…

understand if you’re a good fit and if the client’s a good fit and a framework for how do you really uncover the value that you think you can create and how do we talk about price in a way that is grounded in a vision and in a strategy, not about how much you cost as an interior design firm, for example. And then how do you bring the client options in the form of a one page three option proposal so that you introduce choice into the equation for that client.

When clients learn these frameworks, then they have a process and things become easier from the standpoint that they know what they need to do in each part of the sales cycle. They don’t feel like they’re starting from scratch, confidence builds. And it’s not scripts. We don’t want to just put words in somebody’s mouth. We want their personality and expertise to be a part of these conversations. And so that’s why we work within frameworks so that there’s room.

right, to let you shine and to let what you do really come through. And it just brings a lot of confidence and settles things down and brings organization to the sales process, which just can solve everything in the moment for somebody. yeah, and I think to every conversation is different. You don’t know how people are going to react to whatever you’re bringing to them. But this comes back to just having enough.

practice that you know what you need to say or maybe some of the things you want to make sure you touch on in a conversation with people. And maybe you could talk a little bit about that and how to prepare for a sales conversation. Yeah, let’s start with a qualifying conversation. That’s what I would view as the first kind of person to person conversation. And this is a conversation where you’re assessing fit, you’re not trying to sell something. And so I think

Relieve the pressure from yourself the first time that you have a conversation with a potential client and let them know that too. Let them know what’s about to happen. And so what I coach is to just say, it’s great to be on this call with you today. I’m looking forward to learning more. What we’re going to do today is see if we’re a good fit to work together. And if we are, then we’ll move to the next step, which is talking about level of investment, goals, vision. What does success look like?

And then if that all feels good, I’m going to put a proposal in front of you that has three different ways we can work together. And that’ll be our time to decide, are we going to move forward together or not? If that all sounds good, let’s jump in. So I think that if we can just set some context in the beginning, everybody takes a collective breath because the person on the other side doesn’t feel like they’re going to get pushed and sold to. And the person doing the selling feels like they can calm down and have a conversation and focus on that client.

Then really what happens when you begin to qualify, I think is get an understanding of the want beyond the immediate need that that person is coming to you for. Maybe they come to you because they want a kitchen remodel, but if you really find out why and what the bigger want is, you might learn that the footprint of their home is not working for their family. It feels too boxed in. They want a more open floor plan. They spend a lot of time outside, so they like an outdoor cooking area.

So if you can ask this question that we learned from Dan Sullivan, the leader of Strategic Coach, it’s called the Desired Future State question, and you ask, hey, you and I are sitting down three years from today, and you’re really happy. What’s happened in those three years to make you so happy? And then you embrace silence and let them begin talking and sharing a vision. It changes the dynamic because you’re really learning, okay, what do they want beyond the need?

And let’s put the focus on them and hear from them. And it opens up a different approach in that conversation afterwards. know, it’s interesting because I’ve talked to so many of our clients who’ve gone through very difficult conversations with prospects and they haven’t gotten the projects and they’ve gotten very frustrated about it. So I’m sure that there are some things that you see that are frequently done that are mistakes. So let’s talk a little bit about those mistakes. What are some things they should avoid? Yeah.

I think specifically when I’m working with interior design clients, architects, it’s so deeply personal because you’re working in somebody’s home in most cases if you’re focused on the residential space. So there is a need for more reassurance, which means less jargon, cut out all of the jargon that your industry uses and speak in plain English so this person can understand you. They may not understand what

a carpenter does or what a cabinet maker does or what the electrician does. They may not understand why a design plan is needed before you start design, right? There’s so many things that they need to be educated on in most cases that I think it’s time to just slow down and remember, are you speaking in a way that is jargon free and are you educating them about what the process is and what they can expect? And so I think beginning there and asking those questions,

helps people to feel a little more taken care of and reassured and a little less like they’re just gonna be kinda sold something for the sake of being sold something. So that’s one thing that we work on. The other thing that I know that is really important, especially when you’re just, let’s use the example of doing a project within somebody’s home is give them a sense of what the entire investment might look like. And…

What I mean by that is I believe all of us in our expert professions have a sense of a price range once they get a sense of what is it that the client’s looking for. You may not be able to give it to them exactly in the qualifying conversation because you’re going to need more information, but I think it’s okay to at least float a range and see is there a financial fit. especially in the interior design space, the idea of, there is a phase that might look like

a diagnostic phase where you’re learning more of visiting their home, coming back to them then with design options and directions, right? So that’s a phase that has a certain price attached to it. Then there is the actual work that happens certainly through the interior designer, but a contractor is likely going to be pulled in, right? And other experts, cabinet maker, whatever the case may be, somebody to do the tile work. And so I think if you can talk in terms of

Here’s how this works. Here’s what fees look like to work with me. And here’s what you can expect in terms of the fees for the people that are actually going to execute it. And all in that could look like 50,000 to 200,000, depending on which direction you choose. How does that range of investment feel to you? It’s that it’s not, we’re not trying to sell something. Remember, we’re just trying to assess financial fit and educate them a bit. And I think those things get

lost or forgotten or people are just afraid in the moment to go there. They are, and they’ve been told not to talk about money, but I think you used an interesting word. said, how do you feel about that? So you are eliciting a different response than just saying, is that what you had in mind is different than how do you feel about it? Right. Right. And I think that’s an important phrase to be aware of because we are

We’re in the business of understanding of what that person needs. And we’re here to decide for ourselves, is this a fit for us? Do we want to work with that client? And is that a project I want to work on? So there are lot of decisions. And the other thing that I think we often forget as designers and maybe selling our business services is that we get to choose too. We don’t necessarily want all of the clients that are coming our way.

And they may come with a desire to work with you. And then they also have a fear that you might reject them, which I found to be quite interesting from a woman who was in New York and she was an agent for designers. And she told me that and I thought, I never thought about that. They don’t want to be rejected because you don’t want to work with them. So it’s a very delicate balance of emotional connections and emotional commitments that people have to make to be able to

complete that next step and get to that commitment of working together. You’re so spot on with this idea of you are demonstrating selectivity and assessing it as well. And you should be because you don’t want to work with everybody. You want to work with clients who will let you be the expert and lead, who believe in your point of view, your approach, your design style, and who you know you can create some real value for.

And that’s what you want to tell them in the beginning. That helps everybody who we all bring our own fears and baggage to these kinds of conversations. And that’s why you want to let that person know, hey, we’re going to see if we’re a good fit. If we think, yeah, this makes sense. So I’m going to ask you a bunch of questions. I want you to ask a bunch of questions. And at the end, we’ll see. Like, how are we feeling about this? Should we keep going? That is such a helpful moment just to acknowledge, yeah, we’re all coming into this with some unknowns and some.

concerns probably. So let’s just explore that. It’s interesting because I had a sales conversation yesterday and it was one of those where and you know how this is, it’s called a takeaway. Yeah. And so I was saying, I’m not sure that I’m really the right person for you. And it’s so interesting to watch because that is a position of power. We forget that we actually have power in the conversation too. It’s too cited.

And you get to decide and I was not sure I wanted to work with this person. And I put it out there and yet the more I was a little bit unsure about whether it’s the right thing, the more she wanted it. So I was like, okay, be careful because then you’re going to get yourself into a situation where you talk yourself into working with somebody that you’re not sure that you should be working with. talk about that a little bit. that, that is

what I think of as creating some healthy tension in the sale, allowing that person to feel on the other end, like, you know, I’m not sure, and here’s why. There are some things we need to talk about that I have concerns based on some things that you shared, which is okay, we’re not a fit for everybody. And you can feel in that moment that person leaning into you, right? Starting to pitch themselves to you, for lack of a better word. But you’re right, you can’t.

You can’t kind of get drawn into that and let the kind of excitement or that power that you’re feeling in that moment turn into something that lets you lose sight of, should I do this or not? But it allows you to hover above, I guess is the best way to think about it from 30,000 feet and kind of look down and kind of work to emotionally detach and really see, is this the right fit or not? So that idea of a takeaway or creating some healthy tension in the sail.

is a powerful moment. I again, like, use your power for good. It’s okay to have power in the sale, just use it in the right way. Interesting, because women I think are a little afraid of some of the conversations they need to have, especially if somebody seems to be in a more powerful position, or you have a big stake in this where you need it to pay the bills. And I see a lot of designers taking projects

that they should not take because they are thinking, I’ve got to pay, I have staff, I need to keep them busy. So how do you overcome that fear of not having enough to pay the bills and be willing to say no, even if it is wrong fit? There’s a couple things going on in that moment when fear sets in and I have to pay the bills and you chase bad revenue as a result.

One thing that we guide and advise on is this idea of a mantra before you go into your sales conversations. And it does go back to understanding like what’s motivating you to behave or feel the way you feel. Okay, if times are tight and you have to pay the bills, say that, recognize that, and then kind of flick it off into the universe and then take a quiet moment and say the mantra, which is, I am the expert.

I am the prize to be won. I am on a mission to help. I will only be able to help if you let me lead. All will not follow and that is okay. Take a breath and go into the conversation and work very hard to emotionally detach to take a hard look at what is right for the business and what is right for that client. Now, that can be helpful in a meditative moment before a sales conversation.

but I think there’s a bigger thing happening potentially. If times are tough, sure, the economy can be a driver, other factors. It could also be a signal that your positioning is not correct. You are not seen as meaningfully different in the marketplace. You’re viewed as a generalist or a commodity. And it could be a moment where it’s time to take a look at the business. And instead of being an interior designer for all,

Do you need to start to narrow in and be the expert in helping people age in place or be the expert in kitchen design or whatever the case may be? There’s a few things that could be happening in that moment that all affect your ability to sell and your confidence. Now that’s well said. think, so what we’re touching on a little bit or have talked about throughout the podcast is mindset.

And there is a mindset shift that has to happen for someone to feel maybe comfortably uncomfortable with having the sales conversations. think you have to be there first before you can get to comfortable where it’s no big deal. You don’t attach to the outcome. You’re more interested in being curious and seeing if there is a good fit with someone.

You’ve alluded to it throughout, and I think the mindset piece is a huge piece of this. So besides the mantra, what can someone do to overcome maybe their fears around the selling process, their fears about talking about money in particular, and the fears about rejection? it’s not… Mindset is so important because when you have the right mindset, typically the correct behaviors follow.

And so I do think that when you are not an expert at something in your business, right, many people are founders who started their business because they’re experts in whatever their craft is, interior design, but they don’t necessarily understand how to sell or understand marketing or understand how to be strategic with their P &L. That’s when it’s okay to go get some help to learn how to build some

skill and competence in areas that are going to help your business grow and thrive. And this is not a promotion to go by sales training. It’s a call out for people to pay attention to where they need some help and go get that help. And it is part of why I also talk about positioning, because I think that I know that when you are well positioned and you are seen as meaningfully different,

you make better business decisions as a result. You come to the day-to-day of your company with more confidence. And when it comes to something like getting better at selling, getting some expert help and then a lot of practice, frankly. Like a lot of this takes reps, right? And practice to really feel good about these different areas that you need to have some competency within in your business. Yes, and I think sometimes

We think that as courses an owner and a founder your job your number one job is to bring in business Yeah, you have to hunt and gather and bring in the bacon for everyone to eat and if you don’t you’re not going to have a successful business Yeah, and some people are just not geared for that and I don’t think they realize how important the sales process and having Having that steady flow of people in the business is to their their long-term future

Right. And so you have to have these sales skills. And I think that people think they can wing it, but it’s if you wing it, you don’t have that practice. And so, for example, you have somebody who’s in the Olympics and they’re a diver. How many times do they do a dive before they’re in the Olympics? They have practiced that for thousands of times before they ever get on the stage. So we as leaders of our business cannot assume

that we know how to do this right without scripting and practice and the scripting just to help you understand how to glue it together, but then set aside that script and then use the practice as the way to communicate after that. It’s so true. I think that people need to take a hard look at that if they’re going to decide to start a business. There are some things that are just going to need to happen and be true in order for it.

to work and that’s where you make a decision. Am I cut out for this or not? I will say I have had founders of businesses that I’ve worked with that have tried very hard and done the sales training and really put the practice in and in the end they couldn’t do it, right? It wasn’t them and they had to make the decision. Okay, am I going to bring somebody in to help me with this or am I going to hire an outside sales consultant to come in and play that role for me? They’re outsourced.

sales firms that you can hire as well. I think that’s okay, as long as you have done your due diligence and given it the effort that it deserves and not tell yourself a story that you can’t do it just because you’re afraid. Then I think it’s okay to take a hard look at, all right, maybe I need some expertise in this area in the form of a sales leader to come in and really lead this for me. all of those things need to be considered. But it’s pretty rare that I’ve worked and I mean, I’ve worked with hundreds, if not thousands of clients now over the years that

somebody doesn’t learn and grow and transform and gain confidence and then have the ability to go sell for their company. Exactly. And I do believe too that a lot of your work is making sure that your marketing connects with the people that you’re trying to attract. Yes. So that your sales process is not as onerous and hard. And if you’ve done a really good job of, like you said, positioning well,

and being able to state your case and you’re not willing to leave a conversation without having the tough conversation about money because money is absolutely vital to every conversation. Do not ever skip it in a sales conversation because it’s a mistake and it will bite you in the butt. Yes, it will. And it wastes everybody’s time and nobody’s happy in the end and then it’s bad taste in everybody’s mouth.

I’ve definitely worked with clients who it was a big hurdle to get over the confidence of talking about money and I’ll guide them to just say things in the moment, call out their vulnerability. Hey, okay, we’ve come to that point in the conversation where we have to talk about the budget. I know this can be uncomfortable, but let me check in with you on a few things. Like just name it for everybody. the money talk can be hard, right? It’s okay to do that as well. Great. Well, I like that.

How about a few more tips of things that you can share with the listeners that will help them gain confidence and maybe help them win more business? Get good at saying no is one tip. Yeah. And sometimes it’s just hard because you don’t want to offend somebody or make them feel less than. And so I think it’s a matter again of finding the language that you can handle it with grace.

So for me, it sounds something maybe like, it’s been really lovely to talk to you today and learn more about your project. There were a few things that came up that just sort of tell me we’re not the right fit. And so I think this time around, I’ll take a pass, but I would love to leave the door open now that you know a bit more about us and how we work in case things change down the road. So that’s one way. The other way is refer them to somebody else that you know that you think would be a better fit if that feels better for you.

and just thank them so much for taking the time. When you can do it that way, your integrity is intact and everybody walks away feeling okay about it. They feel heard, they feel taken care of. And if they don’t, you are honest at least and you are kind in your words but ruthless in your behavior that you’re not going to take on a client who isn’t a fit that you know will not work for either party. So get good at saying no, that’s one thing for sure. That’s great.

Well, let’s get back to the thing that you mentioned earlier, which was if you want to hire or feel it’s better for you to hire somebody for a business development role, how do you find them? How do you train them? Where do you find those unicorns? Yes, we all need unicorns. There must be a unicorn service on the internet, right? Exactly. Yeah, I think it does really start with, are you ready to set somebody up for success in that role? Right.

Are you clear about who you help and how you’re positioning? Do you have a marketing effort that supports driving those inbound leads or at least gives that salesperson the content and messaging and case studies to go tell the story proactively? So I think you have to assess that first because you want to set your salesperson up for success. And then I think that look in your network.

Look at people that you know, that you admire that might be doing this work already. I think that’s always a good place to start. I know it’s different in your business where your clients maybe are largely working within residential interior design. So I would say, look at your clients. Is there a client that you might tap, right? That loves your business that’s been working with you for a while that you see that capability in. It’s a little different for your clients, you know, because they’re working with homeowners and such. But I do think that

there are enough niche services out there today that Google sales recruiting for interior design. I talked with somebody today, the other day that’s in our mastermind group that focuses on helping find salespeople for marketing services firms. That’s what they do. And so I think there’s enough niching out there today that it’s probably worth looking at maybe hiring somebody to help you find that person or recruiter or headhunter, whatever the case may be.

And I can work within your own networks and membership organizations and they have job boards, do a good job of writing the description, LinkedIn is a great place. So there’s a lot of ways to go about it. Yeah, it’s different. And I know that you and I have been listening a lot to the episodes and the trainings that we’ve been going through. And it’s very clear that you have to have

at some point in your business, somebody else doing the sales for you as you’re expanding because you cannot continue to fill the pipeline all by yourself. Somebody else needs to be helping you with that. Yeah, that’s this, whole idea of you’re doing a good job of growing your business, you know, right? Like we’re learning about in our mastermind group and eventually someday you may want to retire. Well, how do you, how do you scale it? How do you transfer the knowledge? How do you set it up so that it’s not

a cult of personality built around you, the founder. Absolutely. Well, we’re at the end of our podcast, and it’s always a good time to ask you, what are the three things that you think are the most impactful and important for people to take away from today’s session? Trust your gut, please. Believe in yourself and trust your gut, and don’t be afraid to speak up. And think about those moments in your business

where you know there’s an obstacle you have to overcome, or you know there’s a common thing that always comes up. And create a little tool for yourself where those things are listed and you have it by you when you go into these sales conversations with maybe some prompts about the language for how you might address some of these things. Trust your gut. You know what typically comes up, so be prepared to answer and overcome or have a conversation. I think the other thing is…

just don’t feel like you have to turn into a salesperson. You get to be the expert that you are in that sale. It’s almost like coaching the conversion is the way that I think about it. The sale should be a sample of what it’s going to be like to work with you. So don’t be afraid to let it be that and release the need to sell frankly and be okay having conversations to learn and to see like, is this a good fit? You know, and I think

find my final piece of advice really goes back to that. Don’t be afraid to say no. We’ve all got to get better at that, even in hard times. I think those are excellent things to end on today. And thank you so much, Shannon, as always, it is wonderful to spend time with you. And every time I get together with you, think we need to

have a of wine together. I know exactly. is the thing, Gail, like we have a friendship out of this and it’s just been so wonderful. So thank you so much for having me. it’s a pleasure. Thank you so much.