When a Recruiter Can Make All the Difference (Ken Roberts)

Ken, welcome to the Creative Genius podcast. We’re glad to have you here with us. And for those of you that don’t know Ken Roberts, I’m going to have him share his story. How did he get into being an executive recruiter? Gail, so great to see you. I love spending time with you. So thanks so much for inviting me to be part of this. My pleasure. I know your listeners will be always hopefully get some more exciting stuff like that. You always like to share, but

A little bit about me. Well, I am one of the principals of Interior Talent. We are an international recruitment company based in Florida, but we nationwide and 21 years. And we got into the business. My partner happens to be my wife and she actually started the business. I came on about a year later because I had a lot of experience in the recruiting world, but more recruiting from my team. I managed about 500 employees in the West.

And so I took that experience and kind of joined on forces with her. had some good sales background and always loved what she was doing. And so we took her interior design recruitment specifically business and we expand a little bit more and we started working with architecture firms. And so I jaund on and we said we would do it for a year and if we could still stay together, we’ll continue. And here we are 21 years later, still working together and loving everybody. And still married. And still married. Yes, still married.

Good point. Yeah, well, especially there are so many couples that work together and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. So it’s a good sign that you’re 21 years in. So congrats. No, it’s great. I love her. Yeah. Well, let’s talk about what a recruiter is. A lot of people have not used a recruiter and what is it? What do you do? And when is it best to hire somebody to help you with hiring somebody? No, thank you. Great question.

You know, over these 21 years, what’s amazing how we’ve seen, specifically for this industry, more on the interior design side than on architecture, but on the interior design side, lot of companies didn’t know what a recruiter was. And we basically, we are that talent acquisition arm for a company. You know, when they’re looking to hire, it’s a lot of work and takes a lot of time, especially for smaller firms where like the principal and owner is really in the thick of the business to kind of take the time to look at bringing on some additional talent.

So a recruiter like us, we’re a niche recruiter, only work in A &D. We are really that resource that you go to when you want to find the very best talent. So we are a team here in Orlando and we have some remote employees that we have great relationships and we take those relationships to help navigate the waters of maybe the candidates that are not qualified to ensure you’re getting the best qualified and interested candidates in front of you. And we really take

Because we’re so specific to the industry, we really understand this world and we can talk the language. We can be great ambassadors for our clients. And so I like to say we’re matchmakers. We are career matchmakers. We’re taking great talent with great companies, putting them together. And the whole idea hopefully is to be able to make it a great match. But more importantly is to save the employer, aka the principal, all that time and energy it takes to kind of weed out through all the

Not so great. It is. It is a hard job to hire and find the right people and ask the right questions and go through all the. Resumes and read through it and I know that your expertise and especially 21 years in you have so much knowledge about how to read a resume and probably see things that we don’t see that if we’re not in the recruiting business, of course we’re not going to know all the things that you look for.

Yeah. And you know what it is too is that, know, a lot of people and it’s no, it’s human nature. want to hire people that we like. Right. So sometimes we can help ensure that the, let’s say the qualifications or the technical aspect of that kid, its background is already a match when you’re meeting with them so that you can focus a little bit more on whether or not the personalities and culturally they fit within to your company culture and they kind of jive with them.

So it helps kind of, it does speed up the process for sure, but it allows us to, because we look at so many portfolios and so many resumes, we can weed out things a lot faster than most companies can because we just do it all the time. And so you’re right, know, it’s just a lot of, sometimes a lot of things that they miss and we try to weed through that so that they can really just see the best, you know, the best candidate possible, right? Well, I’m sure you’re not for every firm.

because it is an expensive thing to hire, of course, to pay fees to you all. But what size of firm is a good firm size to be working with you? You know, I think it comes down to, well, I would say that typically when we see firms that are maybe about five or more employees, right, typically, because usually at that point, they have a little bit of more structure to them.

You know, when we get the 10 or 15 or 20 employees, they’re even more structured, of course, typically. But, you know, when we first started Yelp, we worked with five -person and three -person firms, and we still work with those small firms because they have the least amount of resources. But I think where the right size firm really comes down to understanding how we can work best together and how we can be the ideal partner to support that.

And we understand that, yes, we are not the most inexpensive service that you can hire. We try to do everything we can to let them really see the value in that. But more importantly is making sure that we can truly be partners that really understand what their needs are. And there’s time and time again that we tell our clients, especially the smaller firms, like that’s not what you need. You don’t need that much or you need something different or you can pay less. We really want to help them to understand rather than just trying to get a placement.

Our reputation and our commitment to the industry is way more important than making a placement. Yes, we’re a business. We got to make money. Of course, we got to pay the bills. But we know that those those quick placements are not really why we’re in business for 21 years. So I don’t know. That’s a long way of answering your question. Hopefully it does. Well, yeah. And I think because it is an investment, then somebody has to be willing to pay that price.

But when you think about how much time you have to spend going through the recruiting process and placing ads, which you do on their behalf, and then you have to review the resumes and the job descriptions and go through the initial interviews and set those things up and then help to negotiate the deal. There’s a lot that goes into what you do. And so, of course, that’s that’s something that you can’t necessarily know exactly how long it’s going to take. And so therefore,

I think your model of giving a percentage of whatever their first year’s salary is, is the way you work. And so based on that, that’s, you have to be prepared for that. For sure. And we really make sure that in upfront, when we talk to someone that wants to work with us potentially or has the need that we let them understand, you know, really how do we navigate those waters and to make sure that’s upfront. We we’re not going to

We want to make sure that everyone knows upfront what they’re walking into. And then we try to help navigate. We understand cash flow, and so we can do some things to kind of help spread out payments a little bit. We work with those companies. But more importantly, is to your point, is how long have they been looking? Usually they come to us after they’ve been struggling, right? So they’ve been looking for three or six months or longer and think how much time that was. Whereas if they would have came to us upfront, they would have had all that time to build their business.

And we could have find them that great person that would have been adding that additional revenue or support. it’s hard for sometimes for companies if they ever used a recruiter to understand, to put their toe or foot into the waters. But what’s great is we’re so honored and feel so privileged that once we do get to work with somebody, they do see the benefit. We have a wonderful repeat clientele because they understand that.

They don’t have to wait three months to get somebody. If they come to us, typically it’s a month, a month and a half, sometimes a little longer depending on the position or location, but they can move a little bit faster so they can really forecast and plan a little more effectively. To your point, you know, you bring out that right senior designer, how much more money you can bring to your job line, right? So, we wanna try to help companies with that. Yeah, and for sure, like you said, if it takes six months and you can help somebody.

Within a couple of months, get somebody in place. That’s four months of revenue. And if it’s three times, whatever their payroll is, then you have that opportunity to make that if you them on sooner than later. So I understand completely. Yeah, exactly. But you’re not a fit for everyone. And we’ve talked about this a little bit. Some firms is just not the right fit to work with a recruiter. And it’s not necessarily just size, but let’s talk about what are the things that would get in the way of having a good recruiting

situation or a scenario happen? think, well, that’s a great question. And you’re right. Unfortunately, we’re not ideal for everybody. And we get that. And I think what it comes down to is a couple of things. One is that they understand how our process is and work within our process. It is a process. We have a five step process to ensure that we can really make sure that we can have the most success with a company. And so if they’re not, you know, if they’re not giving us great feedback,

They’re not comfortable being a strong communicator with us. They have to really be make sure that we stay to that process and make sure they go through a proper interviewing schedule. And if they just want to be a little more shoe from the hip, little more… It’s a commitment of time on both sides. And sometimes there’s too busy.

So A, if they’re too busy and they don’t have time to kind of stop and help us through this process, that’s going to be challenging. Secondly, is I think that if they’ve never hired before, there are sometimes small firms that have never hired before and they don’t know what to do. I’m always happy to give my professional experience and share with somebody, but we may not be the ideal recruiter or maybe a recruiter is really not right for them at all.

And I think it really comes down to communication, being a great communicator on both sides, because we over communicate probably sometimes, because we want to really make sure they understand what’s going on. And then secondly, as I think is making sure they commit the right time that’s important to be able to do this whole process. we can only bring the best candidates to our clients. From there, they do the hiring. So they have to go through the processes.

have to let us guide them through, maybe they have to add a couple of more steps in there rather than to rush through it. And that’s really, we get a really concern when companies wanna do like a one and done, we call it like one interview and one hire. We don’t encourage that at all. Most recruiters are all excited about that in the recruiting world, but we’re not because we know that there’s so many things that you could be missing after that. And we wanna make sure we go through the process. So once again, that takes a commitment of time.

So hopefully allowing us to walk them through that a little bit more. Yeah, mean, listen, and financially, there’s always that aspect of it, too, that, you know, it doesn’t necessarily make sense to them. And listen, if it’s a really junior person, I tell my clients, like I tell potential clients, I’m like, save your money. You can find those people typically on your own. It’s when you get to those strategic senior, you know, high, mid level, senior level, executive level, director level, those where we can really be

magical partner to really find those people that are gainfully employed and now bring them bring your company their company to light to understand what they could what that can offer them. Sure. Yeah. Well, and also just to remember it to set expectations because you as a hiring person, it’s not the recruiter’s fault if you didn’t go through all the steps and do thorough interviews and maybe have three interviews and put them through actual tests like

Maybe a design example or some sort of scenario testing their ability to check details, checking their references. You still have steps that you have to take and you cannot expect the recruiter to do those things for you. Right. But if they are like, we try it when we look through our discovery process, when we work with somebody, we walk them through that. Say, what is your hiring process now?

A lot of times with firms that have never used a recruiter, kind of, some are more organized, but some are just like, I meet them a couple of times and I make a decision. Well, let’s, is there a design shred? Is there a CAD test? Do you want them to redline some documentation? Whatever that may be, that’s an important part of the job. Like you just said, let’s slow to go fast. Those extra steps, it’s amazing what they can find out through some of those little extra steps.

usually not a lot more commitment of time on their part. just does extend the process a little bit, right? So it’s huge. but yeah, we get, you know, a little frustrated sometimes when they want to rush them and don’t want to do those things. Or if they’re on the other side, it can take too long. Right. So someone that is not available, that extends the process of interviewing.

let’s say they’re traveling shows, they’re just not available. That also can be very frustrating because it’s very difficult to get a candidate to say yes. Once they say yes to want to meet with a potential company, if we don’t keep that time of engagement, that process moving, they can lose interest. And so we got all this way to get a great candidate in front of you, but then they get one interview, then they have to wait a week or two weeks before the second interview. That also can be…

challenging as well. So you need to do this when you’re ready in your business and you’re not going on vacation for three weeks to Europe. You’re not on sabbatical. You’re not going to a big show in the middle of this whole process because crazy deadlines, crazy deadlines. Absolutely. Because when you get down to it, the candidate needs to feel like they’re your number one priority when you’re hiring. Even if they’re not, you have to make them think that because

you have to convince them that you’re a place that they want to work. And a lot of it is how you respond and how you react in those interviews. yeah, absolutely. So true. You know, it’s still I mean, it’s not as crazy as it was during kind of COVID and stuff, but it is still a candidate centric market. So to your point, you do have to I don’t like using the word woo, but you kind of have to really make them feel at least you’re very interested until you’re not.

Meaning that maybe you’ve gone through the process and they’re not the ideal candidate. But up until that point, you have to show interest in the way you show interest is keeping the process moving along, making sure you set aside that time like we’re talking about and making sure that you’re giving the thorough amount of time when they do come in. Especially that’s a big time is when they come into your office. We sometimes will see candidates will get in there and they only get like 20 or 30 minutes like.

They just drove, they left their day or office early or what have you. And making sure there’s ample time that sometimes can send a wrong signal. And this is a funny industry because we feel like there were not only matchmakers, but sometimes therapists. so we hear all from both sides, both candidate and client, all the things that are challenging them and things that they are frustrated about. So those are sometimes things we hear from candidates that like they felt like they were, I wouldn’t say dismissed, but it was just very short.

They take that as maybe they’re not interested, even though they just might be busy. Yeah. Well, one of the things that we try to enforce or explain to our clients is your internal client is your employee, is your team member. And those people, if you don’t put them first, then they will not put you first, nor will they put your client first. So in order for you to have a happy culture, you really do need to take care of them and make sure that they feel important and heard and.

Appreciate it because today people have choices and they can they’ll jump ship in a minute if they don’t feel comfortable with the culture. It’s so true. It’s very, very true. Yeah, yeah, well, it’s good point. I love that. Well, let’s shift gears because you and I have a topic that we’ve been talking about offline for a while now and that is the session planning. So first of all, why don’t you define what’s the session planning is? Absolutely.

Well, this is a very big topic. And succession planning is really, is how are you going to change the leadership and kind of direction of your company by that new leadership? you know, people think of it as, you know, just if there’s going to be a new president and new owner, but not necessarily. We don’t like the use of the word owner. We like to use the leadership because, you know, there has to be the right person at the home. And if someone’s looking at

retiring or just changing directions and you know as far as their day to day you need to have that right leadership in place and successful planning is typically not just one person it could be a team of people and so successful planning is really is guiding your company in the direction of getting that new leadership in place so that it can continue to succeed and thrive in your absence whether it’s day to day or all together.

Well, we all think we’re invincible, but we’re all going to leave the business one way or another. And I remember years ago, one of our young boardroom members, she was in her early thirties and we were talking about succession planning because a lot of the people in the group were older. And she said, I’m not even thinking about that yet. I just started my firm. I said, you should think about it now because you need to think about where you’re going in the future and think about what’s the structure going to be so that I’m building that team.

and having that in the back of your mind as you’re building your team. It’s so true. know, it’s a session planning takes time and you know, it’s a minimum of five years in that seat. You kind of take that’s what we’re seeing is to really feel confident that person can take over, but there’s nothing more. So we have a person on our team that’s been with us for a number of years, about six years, and we are been grooming him at all this time.

to continue to learn and guide the company. there’s nothing better when you can take an employee that’s maybe started from, and you like use the bottom, but in a more junior role and continue to grow them up into a position of leadership because that person has so much buy -in, so much knowledge been exposed, can understand all the different levels of positions that you might have in your company. And I always like to tell these companies that we work with is that you always have to have the end in mind because

I don’t want to work forever. Maybe you do, Gail, but I don’t want to work forever. Well, I can’t work from the grave, so I do have to think about that. Exactly. And so it’s kind of nice when you plan to know that, I think I may retire at 60 or 65, whatever that may be. And you don’t have to, but at least know that’s the plan. So if she was 30, OK, does she have 30 years to kind of really think about that? And when does she want to start implementing in certain key roles to kind of help?

And I also say that succession planning can also be where you move out of that seat of, you know, really kind of the encompassing leadership role, the present role, CEO role, and maybe you take a different role in the company and you can have someone else take that seat. So maybe you just want to be in the business development. You want to just be in the creative side. Maybe you want to focus on your new furniture line and all the merchandise that you’re developing. So there’s different seats they can take. They don’t necessarily have to be out of the company, but

it does take time to kind of, first of all, look at that, see if there’s anybody that’s on your team that can potentially be in those, you can see in those seats. And then what is the plan for them and for you to kind of know that at some point you have to start giving off some of those responsibilities and guiding, giving a little bit more. We just talked about this just the other day. Where you’re kind of putting off these little responsibilities that wind up being

that add over time to really make sure that they’re ready. Yeah, I’ve been working on it for really about 10 years, but the last five, I’ve really sped it up. And now every six months, I’m taking things off of my plate and starting to hand those to the leadership team. So for example, the other day I put in a list of six things. said, okay, guys, here we go. Next year, these are off my plate. So we need to start planning for this now.

And you need to be aware of that. You have to take some things off of your plate. So figure out how, who and how you’re going to make room to take on these other responsibilities, because for you to step into the leadership level that I need from you, you must do that. So it’s an interesting process teaching people to do that. And one little tip that I would suggest is to give someone that is on your leadership team. hopefully you do have that by the time you’re starting succession planning.

If you think those people will be your long term people, then start giving them big tasks and big projects to work on. So, for example, I turned over, I opened up all the financials to my two people who are on my executive team. And so I have an executive team and a leadership team with one additional person. But as the executive team, I handed off the project of doing the budget and doing budget cuts and doing other things. And I said, this is on you.

You all need to learn this and so I’ll walk you through the thinking process and now I want you to go take that and figure out how you’re going to do this. And they came back and it’s like a complete shift in their mindset about the business because now they totally understand the things that I’ve been working on for years and had to deal with all by myself. And now I’m sharing that with a leadership team. So you have to be open and you have to be willing.

to be transparent in some of the things in your business that you’ve kept to yourself for a long time. And guess what? You’re not alone. Right. And then here’s the other side of it. Sometimes companies don’t have those people in Right. Right. So you have to go find those people. And so part of what we’re talking about is when you start really thinking about that, because maybe there are some we have an executive search division that helps with a lot of the succession planning for those real leaders.

bringing in someone as a president, bring someone as a CEO, what have you, but sometimes you don’t necessarily need to bring them in at that level. You bring them in as a senior designer or senior project manager and they groom into that position. But, you know, sometimes you just don’t have that person on the team that has the skillsets to kind of really kind of you could that you see can groom into that. Or maybe that person in your team has no interest. And that happens a lot. We’ve seen that where they’ll have a team member, they’re

But they have no interest in leaving as a designer or a project manager or an architect They just want to do that and that’s okay, too. That’s amazing to have that person But so when you have to look at finding that person outside, well that takes some time, you know and and that process can be you know when There’s a couple of sides one it can be very almost emotional for someone to be able to find someone that’s gonna take their company over right and so

We try to help navigate that part of it. But more importantly is to really understand the direction they want to take the company. Because I can tell you there’s things about me that I wish I, you know, as far as my attributes, know, professional attributes, I wish I would do somewhere different because I probably would have done things differently. And so how do I find someone that can enhance the things that I feel that I’m not as good at or I wish I were better at? And finding that person is what we try to do is find those things that can help fill in those gaps of where

Maybe things were not all there. But that’s a tough process when you have to now look for that person. And that typically happens when they really haven’t thought about succession planning. And now they’re at a point where like, listen, I want to retire in three or four years or five years. Right. And so now what do I do? And really we don’t want to. This industry, as big as it is, there’s so many incredible design firms out there that it is a

we’re seeing a lot more owners that are aging towards retirement. You know, mean, the statistics are was at 33 or 32 % of the US population will be at retirement age within the next, I think, five years. It’s a massive number. So we’re having like a silver tsunami happening. So that doesn’t mean people have to retire at 65 for sure. We’re seeing people work a lot longer age, know, people living older, longer I say, but

people may not want to work, right? And if you don’t want to work past that point of all, you got to get things ready. And so finding that right person takes a little bit time, we can support with that. And, you know, it’s, it can be, like I said, a little daunting for a company to think about that while running their business. Yeah, and I’ve seen some really interesting things lately, because I have some clients that are interested in selling their businesses and trying to get prepared for that. And I think one of the keys that I would say that I’ve seen lately, and I’m

curious about your thoughts on this is that you can have somebody who’s got the skills and the interest, but if they don’t fit the culture, is that the right person to be on your leadership team for succession planning? can a person make shifts and adapt to the culture and correct their issues? Is it possible? I mean, I guess anything’s possible per se. I don’t agree with that as a strategy.

But what I’ve seen happen is that if you have someone that really from an operational perspective and understanding the business, really incredible design eye, creativity that has that part, then you find the person that can help be part of that company, maybe in a different role that can be that more culturally kind of to kind of keep things a little more together per se or be a little bit more.

On that side of the business, you maybe this person is more than the creative and you bring that more operational person that kind of help kind of to kind of fill that gap in. We’ve seen that and that can work well, but to your point, I don’t know. I don’t know how comfortable I feel. If I had someone in my company that I feel could do the job. But culturally, one was going to take in a different direction. Right, maybe not even a different direction is just a.

the personality doesn’t fit. And if you do the analysis of the culture words that you have for your business and that person doesn’t meet those culture words, can they change? I don’t know. And also here’s the thing is how long they’ve been with the company. And if they haven’t changed by that point, there’s probably a good chance they’re not going to change. And I think that, you know, well, first I would be concerned is how long does that person move with your company and they want a cultural fit at beginning, right?

That would be a little because I think that’s a really big part. You can teach people skills. I think it’s harder to teach them to change who they are as a person. Right. You know, people have innate characteristics that, yes, I think people do can change. They become more compassionate. They can be more caring. There’s a lot of things you do. But sometimes that, you know, they just don’t want to. That’s not a maybe they’re too very conservative or maybe they’re too liberal. They just want to be more relaxed. And maybe that’s not the culture of your company.

So those things are sometimes harder to change because that’s who they are at the core. And yeah, but I mean, listen, I do believe anybody can change. I just think that it’s probably harder to do that. know, it’s a, it’s a tough one, especially if you’ve invested a lot of time and energy into somebody and you would have a hope for them, but they really just can’t seem to quite fit into that culture the way they need to, because you really need to have a hundred percent cheerleaders in your.

In your leadership team is my view of it. They represent your company and so they have to represent you exactly the way you want to be seen whether you’re there or not. Yeah, so you have someone that’s you know that they have this employee that is already doing this work. They’re doing credible. They’re the model of getting the job done work ethic just incredible. But there you know the deep down side their culture like to this conversation. They’re not right and then.

You really have to go through this dilemma of like, do I supersede them with somebody else? Right? Because they think that employee thinks that they’re the next in line because they’re doing everything that they to their eyes, they’re doing everything right. And so now you realize that that person is really not the person that would be best as the top leader, the president, the CEO, the person at the very top of the food chain to kind of ensure that

Like to your point, everyone, the cheerleader, the mentor that everyone is expecting. And that’s a really tough one. You know, and so, you know, that’s where tough decisions have to be made because, know, they. To my point or other, you can teach someone a lot of skills and you can teach them how to do the job. But can you teach them to be the right representation and ambassador of your company to your employees at Towson as well, but also to the biggest employees because

You know, listen, we see a lot of times that if it’s done incorrectly with succession planning, a lot of employees will leave because they don’t feel the faith and confidence in that leadership. Because that is one of the main reasons why people leave companies in the first place. They don’t feel the leadership. if it’s not done right, it could be a real problem. So it takes time and effort. know, I think there has to be lots of conversations to understand what that looks like. know, one time we would get

pleasure of working with a company that’s looking for that succession planning of a leadership position. President, we go through a very extensive process of really analyzing. We talk to all the employees, we go into their work environment to really see and we spend time with them to understand the day in day out, to really make sure that we have a really clear understanding of the representation that’s going to be necessary for that person coming into that seat. Right? Because it’s

It’s more than just can they do the job. We know that. Well, and that fit has to be not just for the temporary. we know that some everyone shows their best face when they’re interviewing and they may or may not exactly be that person in reality. So that’s one of the reasons to do those multiple interviews and have your team do it. For example, I have somebody on my team that’s great at reading people. So I want her to talk to everyone because she’s going to give me a different

take on the person, then I will have. So you need people like that who can help you make good decisions and choose that right person because it is so critical to have a great fit for your people. So true. I love period of views. One of my favorite things we do here, we recommend it to companies when they not everyone’s comfortable with it, but we love period of views because I think that’s it. There’s such a different perspective that is that is taken from your team.

that you would see or wouldn’t see. And I believe that when people meet someone that’s not in the hiring decision maker, that that person, their guard goes down a little bit more. So they be able to your point that a little bit more, maybe themselves, they’re not so buttoned up per se, and they can be a little more relaxed. So they sometimes will hopefully not slip things out, but sometimes they do. They say things that are like big red flags. And other times then you can really see them

shine, right? You see them in that environment and they even shine more because they’re their employees like, love this person. I can totally see myself working with them. I would love to work with them or for them. So it can, you know, a lot of times it’s more of that. But, you know, there are times where they’re your employees are incredible. They do. mean, to like you said, you know, if you have that person that can read people, but really is a great, they understand who pro collective is. They can really

they understand what’s going to be the right and what’s not going to work. To have someone that can kind of sense that out is really special. So, yeah. And people, your team feels really empowered when you do. They feel like, yeah, I’m part of this company. I’m going to make sure that the next person that’s sitting in any seat is someone that we’re all going to be able to get along with, going to work well together, someone that’s going to help make everyone’s job a little bit easier and more effective and the company’s going be

happy and growing together. So yeah. Well, here’s another big question. And this one is, how do you know if somebody can grow into a leadership role? I know. Well, I like to look at their history, right? So I like to look at where people have been previous. so, you know, this is obviously not going to work for, when you’re hiring a junior designer. let’s say you’re hiring a senior designer.

I like to look at their previous roles. like to look at if whatever did they mentor? they with how what who and what were they managing as far as size of teams? Were they managing just for a project? Were they managing certain aspects of the business? They were responsible. Maybe they were just responsible for, you know, making sure they had enough supplies for the supply closet to whatever responsibility that they had responsibilities that they could take care of.

You know, time and time again. But when you look at someone’s history and you see the roles they had from the very first job they had to the job that they’re in and see a progression of how they can be a team player, how they can be a problem solver, how do they take initiative to help make a better process as opposed to just doing what they’re told? Right. I think all those attributes together can.

help. The other thing is really understanding us how do they play in the sandbox? Do they get along well with others? Are they an island or do they want to be part of the team? Right. So when we look at employees for our clients, in going into leadership roles, we look at that history, even though they may be a design director now. That’s great. But a design director at one company is very different from another. And so

We try to look and understand that history and look at how it’s progressed. I hopefully progressed and to look at some of those things. mean, there’s, there’s other attributes. I mean, look at people’s, what are they, where do they see themselves? What do they want to do and understand if they gonna, are they going to strive for that position or are they comfortable being here? Like I said before, maybe they just want to be a designer and that’s okay. So that’s obviously not someone that’s going to probably be a great leader, even though they may have continued to excel in the company from

taking on bigger projects, client retention, just been a rock star, winning awards and time and time again, that doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re gonna be a great leader. Sure. It is, you never totally know. sometimes it’s so interesting, because I had one person that other people on the outside were saying, I don’t know if that person can be a leader or that person can do X, Y, Z.

I’m thinking to myself, I don’t know. think this person does have that capacity. And I just was determined to find out. And thankfully, it did work out. And it’s not always what you think. So you have to go through a process and trust your instincts on it, too. So sometimes listening to others, you’ll have to put that aside and make your own judgment, too. I agree with that 100%.

I think that that’s the core of it all. mean, you have to listen to yourself. You know your business better than anybody else, right? Right. But, you know, here’s the thing is that I think someone’s personality, they have the fire and excitement and are excited about taking a bigger leap. You know, that’s that says a lot, right? They may have to still learn the the ability to do that. Maybe they’ve not managed a lot of people may have managed no one.

Maybe they haven’t worked directly with clients, but they are excited about it. They want to learn. They’re ready to stumble and pick themselves up and learn and continue to get better. That’s where you, you know, that’s what I get excited about. When I see someone that’s like, just teach me. Yes, put me in coach. Yeah. And they take feedback. have to be able to take feedback. People that are going to make it to leadership must be able to take honest feedback and corrective action when necessary. Totally.

You know, I think one of the biggest attributes I find with anyone that’s moving into a leadership role is, are they a problem solver? A real problem solver, not do they, you know, look at a problem and then like, you know, trying to go ask people for solutions. They’re coming up with solutions and coming up with trying ideas to try to make things better. Whether it’s a process or whether it’s a real problem, right? I think that’s the, know, in life, life constantly hits us with problems, right? Challenges and

How do we navigate through those? And we think not a lot of people are comfortable in that. They want to be told what to do. Right. How do I solve this? What’s the solution? Where’s the playbook? Give me the instructions. Right. Or other people like, you know what? I got the instructions, but I think it’s better. I can do this way. Be faster, cheaper and result will be better. I love that. That’s yeah. I love that. Well, we’re at the end of our time. So I would love if you would give me three takeaways that you

think were most important from this conversation today that you’d like to share? Well, if you’re going to want to work with a recruiter, know that it takes two to tango. You have to make sure you have the time and commit to understanding a better process, right? Sometimes it’s a better mousetrap to be able to find and secure that right next new employee. Secondly, I think from a succession planning is start early, right? The process takes way longer than

You think to groom an employee to the place where you feel most comfortable that they can step into that leadership role. And then if you have to go on the outside to find that person, is that really understand where you want to take the company and look at the attributes that are going to be important. Someone’s going be the right ambassador, someone that can be the right leader, the mentor, the cheerleader, and get the support you need to be able to find that person. That’s also going to take time.

takes way longer than we all anticipate. We always wish it takes a lot less, but it takes longer. So I think those are the three things I would say. And this has been wonderful. Thank you so much, Ken. It’s always great to chat with you. And I know we have several other topics we should probably come back and visit about. I would love it. I would love it very much. Thank you so much for sharing your expertise. My pleasure. Thank you.