Why are Women so Hard on Each Other? (Ann Feldstein)

And it’s so exciting to have you on the Creative Genius podcast and I am really happy to have you here today.

Well, thank you so much for inviting me to be on. I’m a huge fan of The Pearl Collective and your podcast, and I’m so honored to be on.

Well, thank you for being here. Well, I want to talk to you a little bit about your background and how you got into the industry to begin with.

Great. This month is actually 25 years for me in the industry. I started my career at JWT and I worked on the De Beers Diamonds campaign and that was an interesting time. And then I went to a smaller boutique firm and I worked on other luxury brands. And then I met someone and fell in love and didn’t want to work agency hours.

And I saw that Cravet was looking for a marketing person and I applied and I hit it off with the team and I really liked the family and they offered me a position. And it was such an interesting time for me because it was a real learning curve. And here I thought I was like sort of set in my career and I had this new learning experience. And I fully admit as a marketing person, it probably took me a good year or two to fully understand

the industry works and how best to serve the interior designers. I was at Kravat for 15 years and in 2015 I stepped down as the vice president of communications and I opened Moxie Marketing and we just celebrated 10 years. Yes, 10 years. Time really does fly. At Moxie we work with brands and interior designers, anyone in the interior design space.

We do only take on clients in the interior design space because that is really where my experience is. And I work with brands on marketing and sales. I work with designers on communications plans, of course, PR, events, social media, everything to help designers and brands grow their business.

Hmm, how exciting. Well, and I know you’re working with some people that I happen to know and love well. So that’s really exciting. And I’m really happy to know you because I think in this industry, it’s really important to have people that grasp what we do and understand the complexities of this business because it is not a normal animal. No.

It is not.

It isn’t. And I think that one of the things that’s so hard is trying to find somebody who can adapt to the changing industry. And I think you have done that really well.

Thank you. I’ve worked really hard at that and trying to understand the nuances of everyone’s business, not just the brands, not just the interior designers. I believe we all play an important part in the ecosystem of interior design. I also think it’s such a special industry. That’s one of the things that I did notice right away when I started 25 years ago. People were so willing to help each other.

And it really touched me in that regard. And then at Cravet, I got to work on the Ronald McDonald House project. And it was just wonderful to see all of my colleagues come together, competitors, other designers. Everyone came together for this really special cause. And I think designers and the industry in general are just incredibly giving.

Mm-hmm. I love that part of the industry too. Well, let’s talk about you a little bit. I’d love to know what your guilty pleasure is.

what is my guilty pleasure? I probably have a few. I love a day just sitting on the sofa with my dogs and the fire going and some good food and good Netflix and cozy pajamas and maybe a nice cocktail or reading a good book. That’s definitely a guilty pleasure of mine. I’m a huge foodie. So I don’t know if I would say that’s a guilty pleasure. To me, food is life.

Yeah, I do enjoy my food and I love trying new food and cooking and all the things related to food. I even like grocery shopping.

that’s, that’s alien to me. I haven’t been in a grocery store in years. My husband does all the grocery.

I do love it, not at the holidays. And I like to be there as soon as they open first thing in the morning, but I do enjoy grocery shopping.

is so interesting. I’ve never heard anybody say that. There’s something wrong with you,

I know I don’t love regular shopping unless I’m traveling but grocery shopping it’s my happy place

my gosh, that’s so funny. I don’t even cook anymore, so I don’t relate at all. All right, well, who would you take with you to a desert island, say you’re stranded?

Well, I definitely would bring my dogs. And then, you know, I think there’s a few different people. My best friend, because we could talk about anything till the cows come home. I’d love it if it was my mom, but she’s not with us anymore. You know, someone that’s interesting and then someone that would help me not go stir crazy as someone with ADHD who’s always on the move, even though I’m sure I love my relaxing time, someone that could keep me sane.

I love that. Well, let’s talk about one of your favorite topics. you had come to us a while back and had mentioned that you’d love to be speaking on this topic. And at the time, we weren’t ready to have a conversation yet because we we already had everything booked for the podcast. But I think it’s such an important topic. And I think that today, let’s talk about why women are so hard on women.

And I’m so curious, what prompted your passion for this topic?

So it was really interesting. A couple of years ago, I was having dinner with one of my girlfriends and she’s a mentor to me. She’s older than I am. She is also in marketing. And since I met her, ironically through a crab, it when I first started, we just clicked and she has been a terrific mentor to me and a dear friend. And she comes over on Christmas Eve. She spends Christmas Eve with my family. And a couple of years ago, we were celebrating her birthday at dinner and another friend of hers had

come by for drinks. And I just kind of casually mentioned that I think women are really hard on other women. And the two of them did not take it well. And the other woman, the friend, was actually in the process of being let go from her job. And she was putting it all on a woman and the reason she was being fired. And their reaction was so strong and took me by such surprise.

I really, it kind of just gave me pause and I started looking into it. I just started doing research. As I mentioned, I do have ADHD. So, you know, my brain gets something and it just keeps going. And then about six months later, I was talking to a friend of mine, Sarah Kravitz actually, and I told her about what had happened. And she was the one that said to me, you know, and you’re really passionate about this. Like, I think there’s something you could do with it.

A couple of months later then she invited me to kick off Cravett’s Women’s Initiative Network. And it goes out to all of the female employees. It’s a resource group for them for if they need support, coaching, anything like that. And I was their inaugural keynote speaker. And I put together a deck and it was supported by research from Harvard Business Review, Psychology Today, you name it.

it wasn’t just my thoughts and opinions and it was such a great presentation and the women, were women in the building and then, everybody else was remote because as you know, they have showrooms and, and spaces all around. and once the presentation ended, like the women there, they stayed and they just wanted to talk about it and talk about it. And it was really eye opening.

And even since then, I’ve just gathered so much more research about it. And I do think it’s a very important topic because there’s something called internalized misogyny. I think a lot of women and myself at times have had it and we don’t realize it. And it could be as simple as, you grew up and your mom told you never to leave the house without makeup on.

I’m not a huge makeup person. My mother didn’t wear a lot of makeup except for lipstick. And I guess I followed in her footsteps. But for some people, if they feel that if they were taught you shouldn’t leave the house without makeup and they see a woman who’s left the house without makeup, there’s judgment there. Something as simple as that. And that’s obviously a very simple example. And even giving that example, the amount of women that said to me in the presentation, like,

Interesting.

my God, my mom told me never to leave the house without lipstick or my mom told me I, you know, I should always have my hair done or something like that. And obviously that’s, you know, kind of at the basic level. But another example is the holidays come up. How often do you see that the dinner wraps up and the men retreat to watch TV or play football and the women clean up? And if one or two women don’t clean up and they go to relax or they go do something,

there’s often judgment and the judgment is typically from the other women more so than from the men.

Interesting. hmm, okay. So that is so fascinating. It’s so funny that you say you shouldn’t leave the house without makeup and my mother would say, don’t leave the house with makeup on. didn’t want us to wear makeup when we were growing up. And I think because I grew up in such a progressive household with a mother who was very, I don’t know, she was very different and she was quite a bit older.

And so she, I remember seeing pictures of her wearing jeans in the 20s and 30s. She was born in 1913. So it very, I can’t even believe that 112 years old, but is what she would have been. But she was just so anti all of that. And she was such a, I guess a feminist at an early age. She did not wear makeup. She did not wear a bra.

She did not do a lot of things. So she was, oh my gosh, she was so anti having these rules, even though she was really in a more traditional roles of female. So this is really interesting to me because I really hadn’t thought about this in recent years. And it’s probably because I’ve had such a different background or I had a mother who had a different opinion growing up.

Which I think is incredible. I mean for my my mom she was in some ways very traditional and other ways Bucked tradition like she always told me never rely on a man for money always have your own money and Margaret always work But at the same time she always she was a caregiver and she taught me to be a caregiver Makeup wasn’t important to her, but she did always you know when she was younger wear her lipstick and she always liked to look neat and tidy

And there’s no doubt that she was my idol, is my idol, will always be the most important person in my life, but she definitely treated me differently than she treated my brother. The expectation on me as a woman was significantly harder, I should say, than what my brother’s was. And, you know, we did talk about it in her later years. We did talk about it. And, you know, she was one of seven and

That was how she grew up. She left school. My mom had me later in life. So she had me at 44 years old and she was born in 1926. And when she was 14, she had to leave school to take care of her younger siblings. And so that’s where she got her caregiver part about her. And she grew up in Scotland in a very traditional way where the women did all the work and they did all the cooking and the cleaning. And the men tended the fires.

whatever. And that was, it was how I grew up. And until I got old enough to be like, hey, this isn’t like, I don’t understand, like, why is this expected of me? And it’s not expected of my brother. And then because of that, did just start to, it’s just something I’ve always kind of paid attention to. And now work really hard to

not judge other women if their choices are different than mine.

Hmm, really interesting. Well, I’m just so fascinated by all this. And first of all, we have so much more in common than I realized. My mother had me when she was 42 and a half. So she was much older when she had both my sister and me, and I’m the youngest. But I don’t know. It’s so interesting because I didn’t grow up with the traditional background in some ways, but in some ways I did.

I think I was very conflicted growing up and I really have never thought about the topic the way you’re bringing it to me today. So I’m fascinated to know some more. Now I was listening or looking at this quote that you shared from the Barbie movie. Women hate women and men hate women. It’s the only thing we agree on. Do you really believe that’s true?

think it’s true to some extent, I do. And there’s a lot of research to support it. The Barbie movie was such a great example of women being overlooked. mean, that was the most successful movie. That year in particular, the economy thrived thanks to Beyonce, Taylor Swift, and the Barbie movie. And women didn’t get the credit that they deserve. The director didn’t get any credit.

the lead actress didn’t get any credit like where they didn’t they weren’t nominated for Oscars. I should be more specific in regards to the Barbie movie. And even with the success of the Barbie movie, there was a quote in I think Rolling Stone. It was like, we should make more movies about toys. No, we should make more movies about women. It wasn’t that the Barbie movie was successful because it was about Barbie. was it was successful because it was about women and

As a marketer, know, I look at everything from a marketing lens and something that has always stuck out to me that really aggravated me. And I would say I didn’t have the words or the tools to articulate it correctly is we shame young girls for their fandom of the Jonas Brothers or Taylor Swift or whomever, but middle-aged grown men will lose their minds if their sports team doesn’t win. They’ll spend thousands of dollars.

on tickets, they will wear the same socks or whatever their suspicions are. And that’s completely acceptable behavior by a 45-year-old man. But we shame young girls who are excited to see Taylor Swift or the Jonas Brothers. It’s the same thing to me. And that’s the way society and the media portray things. And I think we’re incredibly hard on young women.

I think we’re incredibly hard on women in general, but young women, or let me rephrase this, girls that are just coming into their own and learning to enjoy and like things and are excited about that. I feel that there’s a, like, you we diminish it instead of embracing it.

Well, talk to me about the fairy tale complex. How is that manifested as self in society and tell us what that really is.

So again, that was something I did a lot of research and just off the top of your head, some of the most notable ones, Cinderella, Snow White. It’s all about, mean, Cinderella is a great example. The stepmother and the stepdaughters don’t like Cinderella because she’s too pretty. And the whole story is, you know, because the prince likes Cinderella. So the messaging that young girls receive is that other women are competition. And

at my age, that was a lot of the messaging growing up. well, that one’s really pretty. So she’s going to get all the boys or she’s going to get all the attention. And, the fairy tales reflect that they’re rarely about for women or for girls, excuse me, they’re rarely about friendship and camaraderie and coming together. But the messaging for boys is different. But for girls, it’s always someone

The girl has something and they don’t like her because she has something where, whether it’s looks or talent or something. And then they’re envious of her. And that’s the messaging that these young girls are receiving when they’re being read fairy tales or watching Disney movies.

Interesting. And you think that’s true even today in some of newer movies.

think it’s less true or they’ve, they’re starting to explore other storylines. Like there’s the, the one that I love from Disney is the young Scottish girl and it’s all about her strength and her individuality. But I mean, that is a newer movie. I think that’s within the past 10 years. So if you look at, the, the, I don’t know if you would say the traditional ones are the ones that have been around for decades, you know, Snow White, it’s the woman that

wants to take her and you know, it’s always about another woman being the competition. And oftentimes a young woman, a young girl being the competition.

You know, it’s interesting too, because I think back to some of the different movies that I’ve seen over the decades, and some of those were about mean girls. And there are so many examples of the mean girls, and I’ve experienced that growing up myself. And I still to this day occasionally have instances where people behave that way. And I’m just stunned at that, at how cruel people can be.

feel the same way. I think, I think right now in particular, we live in a society where it’s becoming more and more acceptable to be rude and hard on women. We don’t need to get political, but we know that it’s happening at the top. So people feel very freely to disrespect and be rude to women. One of the things that really, really annoys me is when you call someone a Karen, because I think it’s just a way to keep women quiet, right?

if a woman is complaining, if she wants to talk to a manager or she’s unhappy with someone or something or a service, instead of being like, well, let’s hear what the woman has to say, perhaps it’s valid, we call her a Karen. And it, to me, it’s just another way to silence women. Women should be able to speak if they’re unhappy, if they feel mistreated, you know, do some people take it to the next level and take advantage? Of course that happens with men and women. But I think

we’re so quick to call women a Karen or, you know, talk about why they’re complaining. And to me, that’s just silencing women. And I think we should be doing the opposite.

Yeah, well, that’s a very judgmental thing to put a label on that. And I haven’t known a lot of Karens and I like them. Yeah. And so that’s annoying to me that we have really made that a negative name too.

Me too.

I agree. Yeah. I do. I think for most women, you know, you have your group of girlfriends or your support. And I do think most women are great. Right. Let’s let me put it that way. And that’s why this topic I think is important. It’s asking you to take a step back and say, do I judge that person for their choices, whether it’s because they don’t wear makeup or they didn’t get married or they only had one child or they had three or four.

children. while I’m not a mom, I do see a lot of the judgment around mothers. Did you breastfeed? you went back to work so quickly. you’re staying home. Like, it doesn’t seem like anything women do is the right choice to someone anyway.

Sure, Well, yeah, and maybe because I don’t have kids either. And for me, I’ve always made that decision to, for the most part, I’ve run a business for many, many years. So it’s almost like that’s a negative thing, but I made that choice very deliberately. And it’s interesting, but I’m sure that that has gotten some quiet judgment from a lot of people too, because that was not my choice to have a family.

I think it’s very easy to put women in a box. she’s not a mother or they didn’t have children. It’s just, I think another way to divide us. think women are incredibly smart. They are natural leaders. They know how to handle a crisis. And I think what makes women different than most men is that women, when making decisions, they think about how it’ll affect everybody in their life, not just themselves. So when women make decisions, it’s almost like a

collective, like this is what’s best for everyone, whether it’s a work situation, a family situation. Like I think they see a larger picture versus just saying this is a good decision for me. And I think men have can have a very singular focus. And, and if you look at the countries that have female leadership, they are thriving and they’re they’re doing very well. And I

And this goes to the topic where I think if women could support other women, I think we would just have a much better society. And I think we could do more. I think we could rule the world to be quite honest with you, but let’s start with our local governments.

Well, that’s a good point. You had a quote that you were sharing in your deck about America, for error, saying something that I think is true and it’s sad at the same time. And she said, we have to always be extraordinary, but somehow we’re always doing it wrong. And that statement is very unsettling to me. And

We both have seen a lot of people struggling with imposter syndrome and perfectionism. That’s just something I see all the time in coaching. Why do think this is so prevalent and how do we break this cycle?

Well, I think one, that quote was fantastic and really spoke to me. And I think a lot of it has to do with women and our image. Let’s start with that. mean, the messaging that I received from when I was a little girl is I’m not thin enough. I’m not pretty enough. I’m not tall enough. I’m not blonde enough. I’m not enough of anything. Right. And no matter how hard I work, I’m never I’m never going to look like, you know, growing up, it was Farrah Fawcett or

Heather Locklear or insert whomever they were. I mean, honestly, industries would collapse if women started to love themselves as they are right now versus wanting to be thinner, wanting to not have wrinkles. And I’m guilty of all of it. So I’m not saying I’m above anything. But I do think a lot of women suffer from imposter syndrome. And I think if you’re bombarded from when you’re born with images of something you don’t look like or is not obtainable,

it’s hard to feel truly confident.

Yeah, it’s true. It’s interesting too, because our industry is mostly women. And I have some of the most amazing women as clients. And when I look at the people that come into our community and see how incredibly capable they are, and how they’re running amazing businesses, and our goal is always to help them be better at that business and

to have the ability to have a legacy and to live financially free. Those things are our goals for our clients. And when I see the level of skill and compassion and care and intelligence that these women have, it just gives me lot of confidence about hopefully the next generation will also pick up on that and take that further because we need a big change.

I do agree with that. And I love that your team is three strong women and of course, and one strong man. And you’re helping these women, mostly women. I know you also have male clients grow their business and be successful and have a succession planned. It’s one of the things that I was surprised at a couple of years ago. As you know, I work with Duane Bergman and he did a little bit of a reverse.

succession plan. And I was talking to some designers in Paris and they were all women and they all had thriving businesses. none of them had a succession plan in place. And one of the women I was speaking to was in her 70s. And I’m like, you’ve built this amazing business for decades, and you’re just going to let it go. And I was like, well, first of all, you can have passive revenue, right, right there. And then you’re going to go into

your retirement with passive revenue, you’ve created a brand and that will continue to grow and that can be your legacy. And they just hadn’t thought that way. They just thought this was a business that they created and when they were ready to retire, the business would close. And that was so sad for me. And I ended up giving a talk at ADAC about succession planning. And, you know, it’s something that I

I talk about more and I know you talk about with your clients. And I do think it’s a very important topic. And I think it’s something that not everyone has thought about or knows how to do. And they maybe don’t even realize why having a succession plan is important to them.

Yes, I agree with that. And we have helped six companies exit so far. And we have worked with companies that are starting to build their succession plan. And that is so critical. And you have to do that whether you are 70 or whether you’re 30 building your business, you should be thinking about that future and about how you build that. So I think it’s important to think about that. We can have a whole other podcast talking about succession planning.

Let’s talk about why you think women are so hesitant to support other women. And I see the opposite too. I see a lot of people willing to support.

I do agree with that. Sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt you.

no worries. Yeah. And what’s interesting too is that some of these people that I’m working with right now, there’s still a little bit of hesitance. Even though they’re willing to help each other, there’s always a little bit of hesitance about, I can’t give it all away because if I do, then they’re afraid they’re going to lose something. So what are they afraid of losing?

Well, again, I think it goes back to the messaging that they’ve received their entire life in is that other women are competition. It started as other girls are competition. And so it takes a lot of unlearning. And I include myself in that. And a lot of it is having the attitude of there’s more than enough business for everyone. And the right client will find you or you’ll find the right client.

When I was leaving Cravet and starting on my own, Elizabeth Blitzer of Blitzer & Co. was very helpful to me and she’s terrific. She’s just fantastic. What an amazing woman that she is. And she never once held back. She gave me everything I needed to be successful. She gave me a copy of her contract. She referred people to me and I said to her, like, are you sure that it’s like, it’s not saturated and there’ll be enough work? And she said, Anne,

there’s more than enough business for everyone. And to me, she was confident enough to know that we come to the table with different skill sets and not everyone that’s right for me is going to be right for her and vice versa. And, I’ve, I’ve tried to always be that way. And of course there’s times where I have my doubt or the imposter syndrome and, and such. but it is really sort of like a mindset of just because someone has something,

doesn’t make you less of a person. Or it doesn’t take away from what I’m doing. If someone signs another client and I didn’t or something along those lines.

Well, the other thing that I think is interesting, and this is very true, is women do tend to compare themselves to others. And I don’t think that’s just women. I do think most people compare themselves to other people. And I wonder why that is so wired into our behavior.

I think a lot of it has to do from big businesses wanting to profit. If you’re continuing to be insecure, you’re going to keep purchasing things to be able to feel good about it. I mean, we do live in a capitalist society and we’re always looking for the next thing. even now there’s little baboos, if I’m even pronouncing that correctly, that there’s a whole group of not children, adults that need these, in my opinion, ugly stuffed animals on their back.

That’s just my personal opinion. you know, I think it’s just a part of our conditioning in society. I don’t think I think society benefits when we’re not confident, because then we know that we’re confident we don’t need the la boo boo or the latest bag or the latest anything. And that’s not that’s not good for business.

So interesting, yes. That is a very interesting philosophy because if it is really about commercialism then why are we falling into that and becoming so enamored with whatever is out on social media or maybe in advertising, why are we falling for that?

I think in some capacity, it speaks to us, right? So whether it’s even the people on the other end that are like, I’m vegan or I don’t, know, like to the extremes, it’s identifying and possibly even belonging to something, right? Even if it’s not the masses, it’s something on the smaller side. And it’s not easy to overcome. And as a marketer, the amount of times I fall for marketing,

is, you know, I and sometimes it’s just because I’m like, wow, that’s really great marketing and it got me and then there’s other times where it’s like, nope, I just fell for it. Hook line and sinker. I’ve gotten better and I’m trying to be very conscious of what I spend and where I spend now just because of where our country is now. But it’s it’s not easy. And as I said, everything I had said earlier about, you know, our hair, our nails are

Not wanting wrinkles, all of that. I feel that pressure as well. Not to the extreme that some do where they have plastic surgery or they really loathe themselves. I’m not that extreme. But, you know, I do still dye my hair. I still get my nails done. I wear makeup. Not that often, but I wear makeup.

Sure

Well, I think if it’s motivated because you just want to feel and look your best, that’s one thing. But if you’re doing it to compare yourself to others or because you feel less than if you’re not doing those things, then that’s a concern. So it really, to me, has to do with the motivation. Is it internal or external? If you’re looking for external validation of who you are because of what you do and what you wear, how you behave, what you belong to, all those different things.

then that’s like a bottomless pit. You can never, ever get enough if you’re looking for external validation.

I do agree with that. And that’s why I think this topic is so important for women. In addition to being able to come together and having the support of each other, I think it does help you realize, are you just looking for external validation? Are you able to get that validation internally? Like, that’s another reason why I think it’s such an important topic. Because if you realize just how much you are marketed to, to not like yourself, I think that helps you like yourself.

when you’re like, hey, I’m actually not so bad. My confidence level now that I’m over 50, I wish I had this confidence when I was younger. I wish I had it. And I guess part of it has to do with age where you really don’t care what other people think. But I wish I had the confidence just 10 years ago that I have now.

Well, I don’t think you can have that confidence without having many experiences that give you the, maybe that assurance that you’re on the right track. But the reality is too, we have to make a lot of mistakes to get to where we are. And if you don’t make mistakes, then you really aren’t pushing yourself enough to test to see what your capacity is. So

true.

I just really hope that all the people listening will really think about the fact that it’s really about how you feel about yourself that matters. It’s not what other people think about you, because if you take that in and let other people hurt your feelings or make you feel bad about yourself, that is a choice that you don’t have to let that bother you. You can let that go. And I think it’s really important for us to

encourage people to be self motivated and self, not self judging, but really just bolster yourself. And remember that you’ve got enough and you are enough and maybe you’re not perfect, but you’re learning every day.

You made such a good point. And I think especially for women, we’re not told that it’s okay to make mistakes or fail. I know I wasn’t, I was not, it had to be perfect. It had to be right. The first time failure or mistakes just wasn’t widely accepted. And I even had a supervisor that said, I don’t, I don’t do anything unless I know it’ll be successful. Like, and

And that shaped me. now I’m much more like, yes, okay, if I make a mistake, I’m a human being. I’ve made a mistake. I will learn from it. Most importantly, learn from it and then correct it and move on. Nothing is most likely, it’s not earth shattering or life changing. It’s just a mistake. And I think for women, and I did actually just read an article on this,

Women are so hesitant to make a mistake that they don’t put themselves in a position to make a mistake. So they’re not taking the risk.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, and risk is what it takes to be successful in life. And also, if you’re an entrepreneur, and we happen to have a lot of entrepreneurs that are in our community, but you cannot do it the safe way. You have to make mistakes.

I agree. And I think that’s a message that needs to be spread loud and wide, especially for women. And then I think you just you learn so much from your mistakes. I do remember someone saying to me or actually maybe it was something I read it was you learn more from your mistakes than you do from your successes.

Sure, you do. And they’re painful. It’s not fun to go through and make mistakes. But by the same token, if you’re not making a mistake, you’re playing it way too safe.

That I do agree. So I think that’s messaging that women do need to hear more of. That it’s okay to make a mistake, it’s okay to take a risk, and it’s okay to have egg on your face, learn from it and move on.

Sure, absolutely. Well, I love this quote of yours where you said, our strength as women lies within the collective. If women joined together, we could rule the world.

I that. you know, for me and the really tough parts of my life, it’s been my friendships and my family and the women that have really supported me. And if you think back, you know, whether it’s someone’s having a baby or someone’s had a loss, the women are the ones that show up with the casseroles or the ice cream or the margaritas or whatever it is to support.

Why I feel this topic is so important is just talking about it. I think it gives people pause to be like, you know, maybe I am too harsh on, on someone or, you know, maybe I can stop doing that and realize someone’s life can look different than mine. And it’s not a competition.

Yeah, definitely. I want to go back to one thing you said a few minutes ago and that is about perfectionism. And I grew up with a mother who was a perfectionist and I struggle with it and I try really hard to break that habit. And I catch myself frequently still. And I just want to remind people that it’s about being as good as you can be for yourself, not being perfect because there is no such thing as perfect.

and somebody will out-perfect you and they will challenge you because they think that they are even more perfect than you are. So it’s not about competition with other people. It’s really about being who you are and being the best you can be.

I agree with that. And one thing I do tell my clients and some of them are good with it and others don’t love it. But I always say done is better than perfect because oftentimes, oftentimes people get so caught up and they, they want it to be perfect that it never gets done. It’s, it’s like the book, the alchemist. I don’t know if you read that book. That was just such a great book to me because it is so true that you’re, so scared of not.

achieving your goal that you don’t even attempt to achieve your goal. And I think it’s the same with perfectionism. You can get so caught up in it. And so I do say done is better than perfect.

Mm-hmm, for sure. Well, this has been a fascinating conversation. We could talk for hours about this topic, but let’s pick about maybe three things that you think are worthy of mentioning again, or at least some concepts and ideas that you’d like to share with our listeners.

I think, as I had said, to pause and give consideration. Like, I hard on, if it’s a mother to a daughter, do I expect more of my daughter than I do of my sons? Is it okay for the men to go watch football after the turkey dinner and the women are expected to clean up? I mean, that’s just a great example. And that was my lived experience. I love my brother dearly and he’s a great man, but it was my lived experience that the expectations

for me were very different than they were for my brother. So I think that’s one to start with within your own family. And then I think it’s, you know, just because a woman has made different life choices, it doesn’t make one better or less than the other. And when it comes to parenting, just because someone does something differently than you, doesn’t, again, we don’t all have to be cookie cutter. So I think it’s just acknowledging and also

The other thing to acknowledge is society benefits if we believe we’re all competing against each other for something. And if we can get rid of that and really come together and support each other, I do believe that we can rule the world. And I believe we can change our neighborhoods and change our communities if women supported other women in a way that just allows them to feel good, to thrive, to come to them if they have a problem, to not feel judged.

I mean, to not feel judged, think is huge to know that you have a safe space to go to. So I think that’s important. And also the media has a lot to do with it. As I said earlier in the interview, just an example of shaming young girls for their fandom of who they enjoy, but it’s socially acceptable for men to spend thousands and thousands of dollars on their favorite sports team and punch a wall if their team, you know, I know that’s extreme, but you know,

really have a strong reaction if their team loses. It’s the same thing. So don’t shame the little girl because she loves Taylor Swift or I’m sorry, I don’t know any of the new pop stars names, but Sabrina Carpenter, any of them. Let her enjoy her fandom. Let her enjoy what she enjoys.

Mm-hmm. Right. Well, very fascinating conversation, Anne. Thank you so much for bringing that to us and sharing that with our listeners. And I will be very interested in hearing people’s reactions to this. So thank you for being here.

Well, thank you so much for having me on and thank you for allowing me to talk about a topic that’s so very important to me. And I admire you so much and thank you and have a wonderful Thanksgiving. Thank you.

You too.