An Organized Designer Is a Successful Designer (Kathleen DiPaolo)

Welcome to Creative Genius. Kathleen, it’s so great to see you. So where are you living these days? Gail, I’m so happy to be here. Thank you for inviting me. Of course. am here in London right now. So I’ve been here for about two years now, believe it or not. my gosh. You have been on quite the journey. As long as I’ve known you, you started, I believe, in India? Yes. When I first knew you. And then from there, you went to?

Budapest I was there for four and a half years and then moved here. So I was in India for two years too. So two and four and a half and now I’ve been here too. Wow. Are you ever coming back to the U S I really thought maybe we would be doing that at the end of this second year, but we just found out.

last week or the week before that we’ll be staying for another year and they said it’s a little open-ended. So you never know. my gosh. Well, that is so different. So what is it like being an expat and being gone for all this time? Well, I have to say the biggest thing that was for me kind of more of a shock is that expat life wasn’t just something I’d always wanted to do and thought I was going to do.

Thought I was going away for a year to India. And now here I am, like living all over, doing everything. But I have to say, it’s been the best thing that’s ever happened to me and to our family. And just has opened my mind to so many things that I never even knew were out there. for me, it’s just every day is an experience to learn and to understand a culture.

and be on a journey that you wouldn’t necessarily thought you’d be on. Well, it’s definitely sounding pretty interesting. So we’ll see if you come back after the next year. I know. Who knows? At least we still have our house. That’s the one good thing. Well, yeah. So you were California based before all of this, right? Yeah. Well, we didn’t even rent our place out at first thinking we were coming back. So I thought, with three kids and we’ll have

Christmas is there and spend every holiday and it never happened. my gosh, I just can’t even imagine how different that must be Well, I of course there are so many questions I have I’m going to try to hold myself back today, but What’s the biggest life lesson you’ve learned as a result of being on the road? Hmm. Well, I think there are two different things here because my biggest life lesson was not actually

probably before, it was before I was on the road. And then there’s also the biggest challenge really that I’ve had since being on the road. hmm, what do think I should do? Maybe my life lesson? Why don’t you do both? Okay. Well, I think the biggest life lesson happened, I think when that market crashed in like 2007 and eight. And at that point I was,

I had just done a few design clients, I mean maybe three at the most, and I was flipping houses. So I flipped hundreds of houses and I loved all of the remodeling and the guts of the houses and learning about how everything works. And I just got way too confident and lent money to one of my family members who was building a spec house. Don’t you remember how everyone was getting into it?

It’s crazy that even look back, I think, what an idiot. But, you know, that that happened. And then I invested in a project that, of course, I thought was going to be a sure thing. And I lost money, hundreds of thousands of dollars of money. And at that point, I know just it was literally devastating. And I still think about it like with such craziness. But

The fact is it was such a good lesson to me in the end. You know how bad things like really show what you can and cannot do because I kept thinking, I had just completed this remodel in the house and I had just made this a perfect home for, you know, our family of five. And I just knew that I woke up one day and was like, I have to let it go. You know, when you just are so emotionally attached to something,

there was no reason for me to be attached to a home. It was literally a number on a street when I thought about it. And yes, I put all this energy in it and yes, I’ve lost a lot of money, but once you let it go, you just open yourself up to what’s coming ahead and what’s new. And I think being able to find a new property, the one I still have actually in California,

And being able to total remodel that and make it for, you know, it was more modest, which was much better for everyone, right? You know, things you just don’t have the, you don’t have that knowledge of having something, you know, traumatic like that happen. So I think that has just helped me be a lot more just calm and modest and have that attitude that, you know what, if you don’t let,

go to the bed, then you can’t open up for the new. Okay. Well, it sounds like you learned a lot from that. And of course, living overseas as well has taught you a few things. So what do you think is the biggest lesson? Okay. So the biggest thing I’ve learned from overseas wasn’t, you know, how to run my life or anything like that, or how to be a better person. was literally how can I have a design business that is

across the world and not next to a project and not let people down. I was so worried about leaving my business that I just wanted to make sure that I had systems and processes in place. And that for me was like the biggest and most scary thing about leaving. And I think just

It wasn’t pretty, let me tell you. I mean, I had to hire people and I, you know, wasn’t going to be profitable in some of my projects. But for me, that was totally okay because in the long run, I really wanted my clients to be happy and have a good reputation and to make sure that at some point I can get them back as clients again, you know? And so having all of that and then learning Zoom before COVID.

All of that kind of stuff. Great. I’m so glad I learned it before I had to learn it. I don’t know. Those are the things that… that was one of the hardest things to learn honestly. Gosh, I can only imagine. Well, sometimes things happen the way they’re supposed to so that you learn life lessons that you can apply later. So it’s not always a bad thing. No. Well, so with you. Absolutely.

You are one of the most organized people I’ve ever met. So how in the world did you manage to coordinate all these international moves and do it so seamlessly? OK, that’s a good question because I literally went, I found out there might be a possibility we may be moving to India. Nothing 100%. They said, why don’t you just fly out there and take a look at it? You know what? Just go ahead and get a real estate agent with you to meet you and show you some places.

Well, that was two days. found a place to live. And before we were even going back on the plane, I found out we’re literally doing this. And I don’t know how I didn’t get the memo beforehand. I You just were in denial. I was in total denial. And so at that point, my husband’s company was the thing that drove us to be moving. So they handled-

the lease negotiations and I went home and went, my God, I’m going into, you know, the mode of it’s a install day or something, you know, I moved out of my office, moved everything in one week and then had literally the movers came that next week. So I had to move out of my office and organize everything to get it to go. So the most important thing for me was

You know, having the movers and the packers make sure that they label everything correctly so that when they offloaded, it would go to the right room. Like that was the thing that I was worried most about. And that actually helps. It works. The other crazy thing I do is that every time I move, by the time the last mover gets out, I have unpacked every box that’s going to be in that. I love

have a box around me. It freaks me out. That’s so funny. I’m kind of the same way, but I haven’t done international moves. I remember that when we moved into this current house, it was, we were delayed a week because they were repaving the street. couldn’t even get on the street to unpack. So we had to wait a week. And so it was right before market. And it may have been the market where I saw you and literally I had somebody come and help me.

And in one day we unpacked the whole house and we put it all away and it was October 23rd and we were on the plane the next day off to market. Could you imagine if you were flying to market going, my God, I have to come home to boxes? I just don’t, I mean, it sounds like you’re the same as me. Like I cannot feel comfortable or just even focus on anything unless that’s done. Well, I just.

Maybe didn’t trust my husband doesn’t back the boxes. You if you really get right down to it, you probably don’t want your husband putting away everything in the house because I think you and I are like this. Totally. You know where everything is. Yeah. Let us know. And the other thing is, is I didn’t even let my husband see this two other properties when we went to Budapest and London. He had no idea where we were living until everything was moved in.

He’s like, where is the flat that we’re going to? Mm-hmm. That is so funny. Did you have all the stuff up on the walls too? yeah. Of course you did. time. Yeah, because I always make sure. Okay, when the movers are there, I need to have the people who can help install the heavy artwork, and then if they can’t finish it all, then I’m doing it all that night. my gosh, you’re a crazy woman.

Well, you are too, it sounds like. Well, I don’t get all the pictures up on the wall and we’re going to be moving next year because we’re building a new house. yeah, which is exciting. yeah, I’m thinking, my God, I’m doing this again. It’s crazy. But every time I think of that, think I have nothing to complain about because I didn’t have to move overseas. And I’m sure you had to wait for your goods to get delivered and for a period of time.

So you’re living in hotels for exactly three months in India. At least it was the Taj hotel, which is nice. So, you know, I can’t complain, but you’re over it, especially with dogs. You’re like, my God, this is insane. I can’t even imagine you didn’t have to quarantine your dogs. No. How interesting. None of the places I’ve lived had to do that. So that was nice. Amazing. Well,

What was the biggest challenge about living in India? I have to know this because I can’t even imagine living there. Honestly, I never really found like a challenge challenge because I mean for me and I always think things are figure outable, you know? So if there’s for me, I always if I was going to do this, I was going to be going with like an open heart and an open mind and

with a mentality of learning. I love to learn things. And so the only thing that was really a challenge when I was looking for a place, for example, was to make sure it’s next to my, or close to my daughter’s school so that she wouldn’t have to commute a lot because commuting there is terrible. There’s so much traffic. And I thought, my husband can do that. I just don’t want my daughter to have to. So anyway, that was kind of the biggest.

challenge, but every day was for me something new from the moment I had to put my trash out. I went to put my trash out and I thought, where in the world do you do that? Well, they don’t have a trash area. Like you don’t put it out yourself. Someone comes to your flat and then rings the doorbell and then you give them your trash. Who would have thunk, right?

Then they go through it, see if there’s anything they want, and then they give the trash to their friends to see if there’s anything they might want or reuse. And then it goes into the general trash area. Things like that, you know, are just… Mind-blowing. Yeah, no preconceived notion of, because you didn’t know it was a thing to conceive of. my gosh, I can’t imagine. Yeah. So different culture, different food, different driving, all of those things that you don’t even think about.

Yeah, like in India, we were not allowed to drive, so we had to have a driver. You have to have a guard, which is kind of crazy. And what do they do? They’re not like guarding you from anything. It’s more of collecting mail. mean, it’s just things you’re thinking, I thought you were protecting me, but no, it has nothing to do with that. yeah, things you were like, why is that necessary? It just is. It’s just you can’t question it.

You just have to be open to it, if that makes any sense. sure. Wow. Well, how much has this affected how you think about design by living overseas? my gosh. I’m just open to so many things now. It’s no matter where you are, whether it’s in India and I would every week go to a new textile designer or someone who’s doing a craft or somewhere.

where I can learn how they’re doing it or how they’re block printing. I loved going behind the scenes and learning that stuff. And even being here in London, I am 15 minute walk away from the Victoria and Albert Museum. So I take classes there all the time, whether it’s art history classes, I even did wallpaper making class there, which was really fun. And we learned how to do a William and Morris.

print, you know, which was wallpaper, which was awesome. It was the strawberry thief. And talk about layers. You’re like, Jesus, I love this even more. Right. Now, I think learning all of that stuff from all these different countries just really shows how things work together. And I have a hodgepodge, as you can see from like behind me, it’s like I have stuff from every country in the world.

I, it works, you know, if it’s together and it’s part of your life and part of your soul, it works. That’s so cool. Well, how did you get into design in the first place? So tell us about that. You know, I was thinking about this long and hard, Gail, because I just, it never was a passion or something that I wanted to go to school for. Not going in design, but going to art history.

And then I also majored in Italian studies because I spent a year abroad in Florence and then got my MBA and still never thought I’d be in it. I did project management. I worked at the National Gallery of Art in art, but you know what? Every step you take builds on the next and becomes what you’re going to be, if that makes sense. so I mean, by the time, you know, I went and got my MBA and then I…

went and got my real estate license and then was flipping house. It’s like I was doing all these little parts that together made me a designer. And once I started doing that, I thought, I feel it. I found it. So a little different, but never went to design school. But I feel like my life has been school. Well, it sounds like it from what you’re saying.

I didn’t realize we both had that in common too, because I had a real estate license. was a broker. I think I was 19 when I got my license years ago. gosh. Yeah, I did it in college. When you could still get a broker’s license without having the experience. that was a long time ago. Well, you know what? I’ve kept mine up. Yeah, we don’t talk about that, but I still have mine and I still have my officer’s license too, so I could have an office if I need to whenever I return.

my gosh, well good for you. Well, if you ever return. Well, when did you realize you were so passionate about organization and details? Because that’s what I think of. Whenever I think of you, I think of the person that is the consummate organization fiend. Okay, I mean, you won’t be surprised, but I’ve always been like that. However, I didn’t think it was anything different.

until I went to boarding school and when I had my first messy roommate and I went, wait, what? know, not everyone is completely organized about everything in their entire life. And it honestly, was like, at first I was just shocked. Like people are messy and crazy and don’t know what they’re gonna do next.

Honestly, I think that’s when I thought, well, maybe I have few issues or something. And later on is when I thought, well, maybe it’s more of a gift or like even a superpower is just being organized because, you know, at times it’s crazy making to everyone else, you know. For me, it just gives me a sense of calm.

And it opens my mind and just frees up all the space to do what I need to do and, you know, just, just free up time and, and mental space. So that’s how I feel about it. Well, that’s kind of how I feel about time blocking, you know, I’ve used that for about 10 years, maybe more. And I know what I’m doing every day. I have my plan. I know how to get things organized and done. So.

I’m not as obsessive about the details as you are, I think it’s really important. And maybe, well, how important do you think it is for designers to have that skill set? gosh. I think it’s essential. OK, before I answer, would you think a client would go, here’s a designer who comes in with just samples everywhere and breathing hard and heavy and just, OK, hold on, let me find it.

Or would you rather someone who approached you and was calm and collected and could find something easily? I mean, I think we’d all agree you’d want to have the organized designer working for you. And I think we run such a complex business and especially when there are multiple projects. How many details? We have thousands of details that are literally being juggled at all times. So if

there is just one little ball that gets dropped, then what happens? That stops you and you’re now chasing this issue that’s happened. And then what do you do? You bring someone else in going, can you help me either find something or help me do this? So then you’re derailing them and their time. So next thing you know it, it just is one of those things that kind of blows out of proportion. And before we know it, one little ball,

can mean your profit margin’s gone. I I’m being a little extreme, but that’s how it starts. It starts with just one little thing, and I think the more organized you are, the more professional you sound, the more how everything is together, and you find things, and you’re not losing your time, and you can spend the time on what you want and need to do to drive your business forward.

Do you think clients are willing to pay more for a designer that’s organized? A thousand percent say yes. mean, honestly, I think we as designers may get noticed by someone or we may get referred to by a friend for a particular client. But once you show up and show how you are and how organized you are,

That’s when they realize you’re the person and they’re willing to pay for you and will come back to you again and again. And that’s how designers make their money is having clients who come back all the time. And I think if you’re demonstrating exactly how you are a steward of their money, you value that this is money that’s important and it’s

It’s you treat it as if it’s your own and you’re allocating those resources in a way that’s again, organized, methodical, thought through. Then again, they will always come back to you because they’re like, phew, I got it. She got it across the finish line and she was on time, on budget and it’s the home of my dreams. I mean, we always wish that happens, but that’s the goal right there.

Well, yeah, and I think you just talked a little bit about how to sell it too, which is that you’re helping them save time and money when they’re hiring you. Are there other things that you would bring up to help highlight this skill? Yeah, think, you know, first impressions, they last, right? Whether they’re good or they’re bad, they last. And so we have to think of those first impressions and

every little touch point that you have with your client along the way as an opportunity to sell how amazing you are and how organized you are and how thoughtful you are. And I think when you do that time and a time and again, then you’re really selling what you’re doing because I can’t tell you how often that happens to me when people say, God, when I saw you bring a binder out,

and flip through something or, know, just something that to me was such a small thing that they say that they go, I knew you were our designer for, for a reason, you know, that’s, that’s where you get that loyalty and that’s how you sell yourself, honestly. Well, yeah, absolutely. And, the other part of this organization to me is the project management. So how does that fit together with organization? Well,

Obviously with a project, we need to have it organized and structured to get it past that finish line again on budget, on time, and all that stuff. so what we need to do with our project management is to really have organized processes in place. And you’re building on those processes as you’re moving your project forward. And again, each time you’re doing something,

that is an opportunity for you to show, is how I communicate. This is how I make sure my clients know what’s gonna happen before they remember to ask me what’s going on. Those are those selling moments. And I know I keep talking about the selling, but that’s honestly what we need to do and think of our business. We’re creatives, but we have to keep the machine going.

even when you don’t want to. Or you don’t think you have time to do anything else, right? Well, I think you want to. Of course you do. Of course you do. But sometimes it’s just hard and it’s overwhelming. So every time with a project, the less we have to stop and think about something, the more efficient and the more effective we become. And by having a process for something,

and having it written out or scripted out, or I even do video out and just keep that there for me to look at and remind myself when I do this again, or if I want to delegate something and actually make sure it’s done to my standard and my brand identity can be seen through it, then that’s the way I’ll do it. I’ll just…

have to do it that way because then you can repeat it. And we don’t want to stop and think, how did I do that? Or where did I put that email? Because I think that would be a good email to do. For me, it’s all about putting this stuff in a project management software. I use Asana. There are tons out there. I’ve used a million of them myself. But I love to just keep everything as organized and in one place so I can just

Look at it over and over again. Well, it’s a skill set that I, and I work with hundreds of designers around the world really, but how do they go about learning to be a project manager? Because you have to be able to do that as a designer. You do. And it’s not something they teach you, think. Or at least I don’t know. Maybe they’ve changed schools or I don’t know. But no, I think.

First of all, that’s all I write about on my blog. So if you’re ever interested, you’re welcome to go to the Return on Interior’s backslash blog. So I love talking about that, just all about project management and how to be more efficient and effective and organize and work on your communication. So for me, again, I’m writing about it all the time and even have it, you know,

I do videos on it too. Of course you do. Of course I do. No, that’s how I love teaching and learning about that stuff. Sure. What are some of the keys to success for project management? Ooh, that’s a really good question. I think the biggest key is probably just making something that’s repeatable. And it’s something that’s repeatable so that either you can follow, depending on how big your firm is.

If you’re a solo printer, you just want to remember it because every project’s different. You you won’t do the same thing in every single project. So having that as like a memory bank or, you know, having something that you can share with your team and delegate, or even how do you communicate better with your clients? Like all of these things are important again, and that’s just having repeatable processes. And then of course, better communication.

we all need better communication, right? That’s where the things break down and the disconnect happens. And again, a project could fall apart just from one little issue. doing that is, again, making sure you have things like Asana or whatever you’re using to be that repository or that place where everyone can access your information and your brain, really. And then trying to avoid those

balls dropping. So every time that we have a process in place, it stops a ball from dropping. Will they still happen? Of course. And they seem to like every single project because they’re all different. But it gives you an opportunity to try something new and to make that the process that doesn’t happen next time. And I think, again, one of the biggest things is a key to it is just time saving. We don’t have time. We’re time poor people. So

as soon as you have something in place that is repeatable and lets you not think, if that makes sense, then that’s great. You don’t have to think and you can save time. Anything to make your brain efficient for sure. And some people, you know how it is, some people are so creative that they’re not organized in the way that they process information and the way they share the information.

At one point, is it better to just hire somebody to help you with that project management? Well, I think it’s such a good question because it’s not just a few. I think there are a lot of designers who are creatives. We get into that space because we are creative and we love to work on things like that. But we’re not all organized and that’s okay to a point.

If you want to take it from hobby to actually making money to running a business, you have to make that step. I think no matter when you hire someone, it depends on who you are, where you are in your business, and how much money you have to actually spend on someone. no matter what, I think you need to do one thing for yourself.

I never want to overwhelm anyone by saying, you gotta redo everything. I think you just have to start with one little thing and you have to own it because I’ve worked with people who are like, I don’t have time. You just have her organize everything for me. Well, guess what? If you do that, then you’re still having to waste her time and your time going back and forth with that extra person. That’s a waste of time and energy and money. So if you’re able to do at least

one thing yourself, then you understand how this process will have to work for everyone else in the team to make it work. again, if you end up having to be that person who just let someone else do it, just know that you’re going to always have to have that person with you. And if they need to go away or they get sick or something like that, you’re going to have issues. Yeah. Well, and it’s hard. And I’ve seen people hire project managers.

And then in the end, they’re not really using them. And the poor project manager is scrambling because the owner won’t actually follow the processes or the plan. that I would say, just be careful. If you do not like to follow processes, then hiring a project manager may not work for you.

I’m with you 100 % because if you don’t, that’s why I always say do one yourself because if you don’t know how to do it or what they’re going to need from you, nothing’s going to work. And my first thing I always tell people is just start with something, well, there are two things, but if you can do this by yourself, start with your digital files. It sounds so simple, but if you can organize one project with your digital files,

That’s great. Then you can use that as a template for your next project. So then getting a naming system and getting a way to save your documents, well, then you can share that information with everyone else and share your documents. And then everyone’s more on the same page. So again, a small thing, but you know what? That’s where you have to start. And if you can do that, then you can hire someone because you can tell them where it is.

Yeah. Well, and I think it’s interesting that you start with file structure because that’s one of the things that I see a lot of people, they’re so disorganized when it comes to how they structure things and they can’t find things themselves and just think how many hours you waste trying to find something if you don’t have it well structured. Absolutely. So it’s all for your benefit when you’re completely organized. Yeah. And just a file for one project.

Once you get one done, then that’s duplicatable. If that’s a, how do I say it? You I’m glad you can say that. I can’t say that. You can just say it and do it over and over and over. Cause that’s a process you can repeat. And that’s, you know, I call it like process stacking. You can do one. Once you do it, you know, you can do it. Then you can stack one more on top of it. And you’re not saying

go and do everything, you just want one thing that’s going to save you time. And I’m such a strong believer that, you know what, we can all do something and the biggest thing that we can do is, you know, work on the one process where you’ve had the ball drop more than once and that is something that is costing you money. So if something’s sucking all your time up or there’s going to be another better, more efficient way to do it. And that’s the

perfect place to start with your second process. Okay. Well, so you’ve given us a couple of good tips. Start with organizing your files first and then second. What is the second point? No, the second is to take something that’s either a roadblock or there’s something that is a time suck for you and know that you can build a better process around it and then make sure that the

You can repeat that. Okay. And what’s a third tip you would share with people? Once you do this, okay, I have to say my process, let’s say it’s something that’s blocking you, for example, and you, it’s usually with you and then there’s someone else who’s helping you. I would bring that person in with you and sit down, block the time. I’m all about time blocking too, Gail. So if you, when you have an issue,

Go ahead, write that in there and block your time because that’s going to allow you the opportunity to sit down with another person, do your brainstorming, write down all these steps or maybe ideas of how to improve something, and then go through that and list them, one, two, three, four, five. And after you’ve done that, that right there is your SOP. I usually take this and turn and then make sure …

my wording is there and my personality and my voice, and then I record it. I sit on Zoom, I put share screen, and then I record myself. then I, again, I have my naming structure, so I name it in my SOPs and then save it. that A, I can use it again to remember. B, I can delegate it to someone and they’ll do it the same way that I want it done.

Awesome. Well, those are great tips. Well, so you’ve given us a lot of things to think about today, but let’s end on a personal note and tell me who or what inspires you the most. definitely my parents. I mean, they have always been a gift to me and they’re in their mid over. My dad’s 86 and my mom’s 80. I don’t know for, but they every single day they are out walking at least three miles a day.

And they do that, they go hiking and they travel. Like they have given me my love of travel and education. And that’s how I was raised was, okay, nothing matters except that you have the foundations. You need to have the foundations of education and you need to never stop learning. And travel’s such a gift that you can give yourself and your family.

to open up your minds and never be boxed in by something. Just know that, you know what, what’s out there and if it’s fearful, that’s okay. They’re the type that say, if you push yourself and if you feel that fear, then that means something good’s gonna come out of it. Love that.

Well, thank you for being on the podcast today, Kathleen. It’s always a pleasure and we can’t wait to see you around campus. Hopefully we’ll see you back in the States one of these days. know, at least a high point or something. for sure. I know. Well, it’s always so fun to see you, Gail. And I again, thank you so much for spending time with me. That was such a treat. My pleasure.