Selling Luxury with Empathy (Jeffrey Shaw)

Well, welcome to the Creative Genius podcast, Jeffrey. I’m so glad to have you here and spend time with you again. And by the way, I have to share you are one of our favorite speakers that are one of our recent boardroom retreats. And I just really valued that time that you shared with our people and they loved, loved, loved what you had to say. So we’re going to talk about your book and it’s Sell to the Rich, which is so appropriate for our industry.

Thank you.

It is, is. Thank you. I had such a great time with your group too and honestly I said probably that day and I’ve said many times since, hanging out with designers is such a complete joy to me because who doesn’t love hanging out with hardworking people who have good taste?

Well, you have good taste. Yes, and you are in very much the visual business anyway, or at least you were serving people as a photographer. But I want to talk about how you started with this and how you learned so much about the luxury market.

Sure.

Yeah, a really crazy journey, right? I mean, the fact that I had the opportunity as a family portrait photographer for many of the most affluent families in the US for more than 40 years, just crazy. I didn’t come from that background at all, but I was very, very clear after a few years of struggle, it was very clear to me that these are the people I was meant to serve. And that’s such an inner feeling, right? I mean, how you get to that point of realizing that, you know, who you’re meant to serve and…

to realize it wasn’t a world I knew. So, I mean, I am forever grateful for the fact I was able to break into this very challenging market and then spend 40 years literally hanging out in their closets, right? So everything I teach today, talk about, write about, is always going back to those intimate conversations with an affluent clientele that I often found.

how luxury brands were marketing, how they were speaking, how they were showing up in the lives of these clients was very different than what I was hearing from the clients. And that was, that’s the valuable contrast because I was getting, felt the real them, which really on their mind and realizing the division between when you’re affluent, you’re such a target of marketing and your experience, those moments in the closet, their real lives were very different.

And so everything I know today about luxury came from those moments of intimacy and getting to hear, you know, really being embedded and nothing is more personal to people than their children. So, you the lives I had in photographing their kids and their families really opened up very intimate conversations. And I felt like I got to see an inside perspective that quite frankly, most people in the luxury business do not.

That’s amazing. What do you think keeps people from approaching and serving the luxury market and maybe feeling like they are not imposters, that they should be able to serve these people?

And what I love about that question, Gail, is that actually I really woke up to that at your event at Pearl Collective because I doubt you recall, but there were a number of questions from the audience right in the moment, as well as people that came up to me afterwards and a very common question, so much so that I ended up writing a newsletter about it. And the question was to me, how did you get comfortable working with a clientele in a world you didn’t grow up in?

Mm-hmm.

So I realized what’s keeping most people from stepping into the world of self-serving a high-end client is probably their own fear of being comfortable. Their belief that they won’t be comfortable because they didn’t come from that world. But here’s a newsflash. 99.9 % of people serving luxury buyers didn’t come up and grow up in that world, right? If you did, you’re probably not a sales associate at Dior, right? I mean, it’s just the reality of it.

who are serving this clientele. And that’s not to say that, and hopefully it’s true, that in the years of serving this clientele that we actually step into that market. You one of my favorite stories to tell, which is very foundational to my work, is that as a startup photographer in my 20s, and not knowing this clientele before, in the process of rebranding who I would become to serve this clientele.

I spent a lot of time at high end stores in New York City and my favorite one was Bergdorf Goodman. I felt like a fish out of water going to Bergdorf Goodman. I knew it wasn’t the world I was from, but I went there to understand the world of the people I was going to serve. I can say today, I mean, without, you know, just to make the point and not to brag at all, but you know, to see your life transition from being an outsider going to Bergdorf Goodman to learn.

to years later and not that many years later becoming a customer of Bergdorf Goodman and now decades later I’m an ongoing customer of Bergdorf Goodman and have a personal shopper there. So that transition to me is not to brag but it’s to represent the journey. So no, wasn’t, I think what holds most people back is they believe they’re not comfortable or going to be comfortable serving this clientele. You just have to be yourself.

Mm-hmm.

The worst thing you can do is being an imposter. The worst thing you can do is put on a facade, because they will smell that a million miles away. They’re not interested in a fake version of you. I never tried to hide where I came from. It was irrelevant. I was there to do a job, and I was there to do it well. And to me, comfortable is about belonging. And belonging is your individual choice.

Mm.

I believe we all should decide that we belong by birth by birthright we belong in any room we choose to be with regardless of where we came from or are you know any any other circumstances we have a right to decide we belong in any room regardless of gender race sexual orientation whatever it might be a social economic status you deserve to belong in any room you choose to be in well so

It’s an internal feeling. I feel like even at my early 20s, I had this feeling like I don’t know what it is. I don’t know what it’s gonna look like, but I belong here. I’m just going to make myself comfortable. And then as you do, it becomes a very positive cycle of as you get more and more comfortable, you get elevated and elevated. Next thing you know, you’re a customer at the very same store that you used to go to to study.

I love that. And I think that you could not have said that better because today I think a lot of people do exactly what you said. They may try to be somebody that they’re not. They need to be authentic to who they are and really care about the person that they’re serving instead of trying to be perceived in a certain way. So it’s more internal what you need to do versus the external. So just be aware of that.

they feel your level of conviction and commitment to them. To this day, I still operate that way as a speaker. Before I walk on stage, I always remind, because I’m still a nervous speaker. It still makes me nervous, it always will, right? But what helps me to get past that is to shift the spotlight from me to the audience. before I walk on stage, I remind myself that no matter what happens, keep going.

And that’s my mantra. And what that means to me is if I fall off the stage, keep going. If the audio goes out, keep going. If the slides go out, keep going. Because it reminds me that simple phrase, no matter what happens, keep going. It reminds me that I’m there in service. So I believe the audience, in that case, the speaking audience, I believe they feel that level of commitment and conviction. And so do affluent buyers, more so than most. They don’t care where you came from.

They don’t care even if you’re comfortable. will honestly, they will try to probably try to make you feel comfortable because they see in you something that, you know, and I could tell so many stories of examples and I won’t go into all of them, but I mean, I’ve had so many circumstances where I could tell somebody saw something in me that I didn’t see in myself yet. And success minded people love that. And there’s a correlation between success minded people and affluent buyers.

They love seeing potential in somebody and being a part of your journey and pulling it out. So don’t cover that up, be authentic, give people the chance to see something in you that you don’t see in yourself and they’ll pull you up with them. it’s honestly, gives me chills to this day. It’s a gorgeous, beautiful experience.

It is really amazing. I’m so glad you shared that because that is co-creation at its best. When the client is actually part of the journey of making you better at what you’re doing. So I think that’s a great approach and a wonderful nugget to share. So what do you think that luxury buyers really want and what do they expect from the people that are providing service to them?

You

You know, sometimes I overlook saying this, but obviously they need skill and they’re looking for skill and excellence, right? They don’t hire anybody, but here’s the thing. And I always say this at my speaking events, I’m assuming anybody in my audience and certainly your gathering of amazing designers, like the fact they’re there tells me they’re good at what they do and they striving for excellence. So they wouldn’t be showing up to industry events, right? So that’s table stakes. So obviously they’re expecting skill and excellence, but they’re also expecting, you know, as we said,

absolute integrity. you just, gosh, they, I think one of the greatest surprises of working with this clientele is realizing for a clientele that can so easily be written off as being shallow and materialistic. Here’s a big wake up call. They are actually the most intuitive, perceptive clients you will ever work with. And think about it, they have to be. In part because,

And I love studying this and observing it and I don’t know that I have a final conclusion to it because in part, think they are highly perceptive because they’ve had to become perceptive to people wanting to take things from them. And just wanting to, you know, be after their money. So I think there’s a way in which they became perceptive because their antenna is up. But I also have noticed that that high level of perception and reading energy and intuition.

is also a characteristic of success. and the example I can give of that is that my clients, my photo-harvey clients were primarily Wall Street folks. Think about it, Wall Street is almost all intuition, right? It’s just really like, where’s the market going? What’s it, they, to succeed at a very high level, they have a knowing in their gut that surpasses any other clientele I’ve ever worked with. So knowing that, you have to be in.

There is no pulling the wool over their eyes, right? I also think because they expect straightforwardness. know, so often luxury can look like over-gilded accessories and, you know, when really what they’re looking for is straightforwardness in every aspect. Like I’m a huge believer in pricing strategies being clean and clear. Everything’s rounded off, vague. Don’t nickel and dime. Don’t…

have all these extra charges. If you have to travel for a job, just build it in. Like don’t start having conversations about, know, I have to charge you $100 for travel. It’s like, my gosh, that’s just be straightforward. So I think those are some of the things that people don’t expect. And then lastly, I’ll say, which I think is probably the most important, something they expect, but they will never ask for is that they’re expecting you to stay a few steps ahead of them.

They love that more than anything. Like you’re doing their thinking on their behalf. You’ve thought of the thing that needs to be done before they thought of it. You hit a concern before they even realized that you took care of things before they were a problem. They don’t think to ask for that, but they live their lives in a way that they expect the people around them to be operating that way. And it’s very tricky, because like I they won’t outwardly say, I want you to stay three steps ahead of me.

They won’t say that. I got news for you. They are expecting that you do. Because the standard is you keep up with them. But they’re never looking to be at standard level. They’re always looking to excel. So they’re looking for service providers that don’t just stay with them, but are actually a few steps ahead of them. They won’t ask for it, but they’re expecting it.

That is such a great piece of advice about that. And I think I was talking to one of my clients this week in a VIP that I was doing with her and she wants to keep up leveling her service. And we were talking about the book, Unreasonable Hospitality, which is such a fabulous book. just understanding that you have to take things further than most people would ever begin to think about. And it’s not just doing design, but it’s doing all the things around design.

Yeah, is upleveling your thinking and everything. I love to take everything in the normal world and put it into the exceptional world, right? So I don’t look at it as customer relationships. I look at it as customer bonds, right? Because to have a goal to create a bond with somebody is different than a relationship. you know, customer, it’s not customer service as much as it is staying a step, a few steps ahead of them, because you’re delivering at a level they wouldn’t even ask for. So, you know,

There’s, when you want to operate at an exceptional level, you have to realize, fundamentally, and I often teach this my coaching clients, that at some point you have to make the decision to be different. And being different scares some people. But you can’t stand out in your field and you can’t be exceptional until at some point you say to yourself and commit to it that I’m gonna be different than all the rest in every way, shape, or form. And it’s lonely.

Mm-hmm.

You know, the expression lonely at the top, I don’t think even comes close to feeling like when you are trying to be exceptional in your industry and you can’t relate any longer to 90 % of the people around you, which honestly, which is why things like your group and working with you is so important because that’s where it becomes essential to hang out with people who have a desire to operate at that level, right? But then you get out into a bigger, bolder world and you realize that you are amongst the very few.

I was left to feel entirely alone in my industry as a photographer because there was no one operating at my level. I mean, most photographers are trying to figure out how to make $500 a sale and I came out of the gate saying, I am not gonna wake up in the morning for less than 10,000, right? It just was, it was so extreme that I couldn’t, who do you hang out with then? I had to work long and hard to find photographers that thought like me and.

I once I did I used to create an annual gathering there were maybe 12 photographers in the country that thought like I did and we used to get together once a year just to have that camaraderie because the rest of our lives were spent you know almost almost keeping that hidden not because we needed to but because it seems so extreme to everybody else in the industry. So you know I think yeah I think hanging out with with.

some people that are close to you and think like you is really important.

For sure. So this brings me to another question, which is how do you up level your ideal client profile? How do you go about doing that? And I think that’s really important for people to think about that because at the very high end of the market, that’s who can afford the services of an interior designer. So why not up level? I guess is my question.

So, and obviously I’m a big fan of working with clients at the highest level. And again, just, you know, in aligned with our conversation, not because that’s where all the money is, but because first of all, I have always looked at serving this clientele as the best route for my own personal development. it’s, I love living in a way that I am kind of, I know you’re like this too. And I love this about you is that you never stop striving to be better.

I love the fact that who I serve is constantly pulling me up, you know, and I don’t see that ending. So yes, I think this is the clientele to work with because of the personal journey. And so I encourage everyone to think about up-leveling. And I also think it’s, I love sharing from the stage stories of brands we know today, like Hermes and, you know, they were an equestrian company, know, Shinola is another,

who now is really well known for beautiful leather products and bicycles and watches. Like they were originally a shoe polish. It’s one of my favorite stories. Like Shinola was originally a shoe polish and then, you know, they decide to up level their brand. So how do you do that? So the first thing I believe is in the title of my first book is lingo is to you have to speak their lingo.

So that’s where the work begins and that’s the work I had to begin with when I mentioned earlier about going to New York City high end brands. When you’re stepping into a world that isn’t innately familiar to you, you have to understand the lingo of the world you’re stepping into. know, what, how do they communicate? What do they see? For example, in the simplest forms, when I was originally a photographer, I had a very generic name to my photography studio. But then as I came to understand what the lingo of this clientele was, they hired

individuals, they hired designers. It was also in the 80s when Ralph Lauren was coming to his own, Vera Wang. So the use of designer names was becoming really huge. So I shifted my whole business to my name, right? So it just became Jeffrey Shaw. And then I created an up-leveled brand around this name, this brand of Jeffrey Shaw, which turned out to be very funny because many years later, when I was kind of at the peak of popularity,

I would meet people at parties and they would say to me, I thought you’d be a lot older. Right? Because I had created this really well established brand image. But they didn’t realize I was 23 when I started. 10 years later, I’m still in my early thirties and they I was a 50 year old guy because not that the brand image was stodgy, but it was so well established. Right. Because I built Jeffrey Shaw’s a brand. So step number one is you have to understand their lingo. What does their world look like? What do you?

Here’s the question to ask yourself is what do they need to see, and feel to choose you? Okay, so put yourself in their shoes. This is the question I would put in my mind when I entered every high-end store. If I’m my ideal customer, what am I seeing, hearing and feeling that’s inspiring me to buy? So I’m looking at the merchandising. I’m noticing how there are no cash registers present because it’s not about the transaction. I’m noticing the smells.

I’m noticing the simplicity, I’m noticing the pricing strategy. So I took all that information in so that I could understand the lingo of the people I was going to serve. Then you can build your brand. And this is where people often do it backwards, right? You first have to understand the lingo. Then you can create the brand, the name as I did, the icons, the logos, the style of your website, the style of how you present yourself, your packaging.

None of those decisions can be made until you understand their lingo. And that’s not just a startup mentality. That is when you choose to up-level, you pause, just pause, understand the lingo better of the people you’re gonna serve, and then observe where do you need to change your branding to up-level to that new clientele that you’ve up-leveled to. Again.

There’s so many stories throughout history of, like I said, Hermes, Shinola, think Louis Vuitton, like there’s so many brands that started out in one form and then the light bulb went off that they wanna go into up level and they did too. And it always starts with understanding who you’re serving and then recreating the brand image and particularly the brand messaging. You have to speak their language.

Great, great ideas. So how do luxury buyers make their decisions?

So like all of us, emotions, but even more so, if you recall from my opening slide of my keynote, Self to the Rich, the opening slide is when money isn’t an issue, everything else is. So everything’s exaggerated. So yes, they’re humans. They’re emotional buyers like everybody else, except they’re tenfold more emotional. And it’s luxury. There’s no need in luxury. Although, it’s in the current moment that we’re living in this

world of uncertainty and chaos, this is something that changes in a very positive way for luxury, that there are segments of luxury that suddenly become a need. know, going to a spa or a weekend away or even that gorgeous outfit you’ve had your eye on in the past was pure luxury, today, it’s got more of a need to it because, my God, I need a break, right? Or,

I need a treat. I need something to keep me going. So it’s an interesting time that we’re living in when things become so uncertain that there are segments of luxury that actually start feeling a little bit more like a need and it’s the ideal time for businesses to tap into that. And I think it fits with interior designers too. Like I’ve said to many interior designers recently that when the world is out of control, the only thing people believe they can control is their home.

So this might be the time more than any other time that people don’t just want to redecorate a room, but actually need to for their sanity, for their soul, their, so tap into those emotions of this isn’t a time just to, it’s a nice to have a nicer bathroom, but that you need that sanctuary to get yourself through the day. So it’s an interesting, so emotions of course, always trust because they are a

very skeptical clientele, rightfully so. They’re also gonna make a decision based on your reputation, which as designers is important, but interesting enough, I think that shifted. You will tend to not get hired on reputation alone anymore, where you probably did in the 80s and 90s. There are a lot of designers I cross paths with that, you

I heard behind the scenes they were absolutely horrible to work with, but they got hired because they were the designer to hire. Not today, right? Your reputation is gonna get your foot in the door, but probably not gonna get you hired unless you also exude the right emotions, a sense of trust. And then last, I’d say this buyer makes the decision, as you said earlier, on energy. How do they feel about you? Because you can have the best reputation in your field, but man, if they’re not getting a good vibe off of you,

If they feel like you’re out of integrity, if they feel off with you, they’re not gonna hire you. Like energy will, how they feel about you energetically will surpass your reputation and something to be very keenly aware of. You can’t rely on reputation alone anymore.

the gut feeling that they get about you is going to either get the job or lose the job.

and they listen to their gut because they live lives that need to be protective or as I said earlier, like it’s part of their job. It’s part of their job and their success to use their gut instinct. So they’re paying very close to how they feel about you in making a buying decision.

So interesting. What’s a common misconception about working with the affluent?

I’d say that people think they’re more formal than they are or that their lives look like what you see in the image because behind it, I love, I literally in 40 years had two, I came across two people that I didn’t enjoy working with. One was a client who I tried making the bed, she just was too difficult so I fired the client if you will. And the other one never became a client because she was so entitled the moment she called me that I just couldn’t deal. I’m like, yeah, I’m just not the photographer for you, her attitude was just.

But two people over 40 years, I think are really good odds. Other than that, I loved my clients. And part of it was because I found them to be so much more real than I expected. know, sure, their lives are formal, their homes are gorgeous, but oh my gosh, most of them can have a rippering sense of humor. You know, downright inappropriate at times, but really fun. Casual, like I loved, they just were so different. And one thing that stood out to me,

particularly amongst the men, because I was dealing mostly with the moms of the house, but the dads got involved. And what surprised me is how much they loved talking about success mindsets and thinking grow rich mentalities. As soon as something woo-woo came up, next thing I know we’re in their office, cramming ideas over success mindset. To me, they were already at such a high level.

I didn’t think they were still thinking that way. But then you realize, what got them there was this way of thinking. So they’re so much more real. And I think that’s really important because I had a role as a photographer that was somewhat unique in that I had to show up professional and, you know, with confidence that they knew that I could handle the situation.

But I also had to crawl under dining room tables to retrieve kids that didn’t want to be photographed and crawl on the grass to get the right angle or on the beach. I’m rolling up my pants to go into the water so I can get the best angle. So to me, it really reflected that experience with them, that there was a balance between formality and realness. And one of the examples I often share with people is just think about how much they love the front row seat at any

and the backstage pass, right? So it’s that duality. Also, Chef’s Table, right? They love the experience of peering into the kitchen. So I think a misconception is that they are more formal, stiffer, less kind, all that. I just found them to be far more real than people expect.

That’s great. What skills are the most useful in attracting this clientele?

I think the soft skills are even more important, because again, I trust that everybody’s coming into it with the skill of what they do, but I think empathy is one of the most underrated soft skills we can have in life, especially serving this clientele. Because especially if you didn’t come from their world, and when I’m brought into luxury brands to work with sales associates, this is usually the number one reason, and brands will reach out to me and.

and express that the number one problem they’re having is their sales associates on the floor who didn’t come from the world of the clients they serve are holding some judgments and assumptions. And if you don’t come from that world, it’s impossible not to. Right now, I think we’re living in a time where there’s more billionaire bashing going on than almost any time in history. But what I always like to say, it’s not the money. Money in and of itself has no power.

It’s what people do with it. many, many people do incredible things with wealth, incredible things. So I think it’s so important to approach this clientele, the luxury clientele with an understanding of your own assumptions and judgments and get rid of them. They don’t have a place because you have to come in completely in clean energy to be empathetic. They live crazy.

I mean, it’s intense. mean, there were, believe me, I had my moments where, like, at one point in my career, was a single dad of three kids, you having been divorced a couple years earlier. One of my clients, like, just couldn’t get around to making a decision because, according to her, her life was just so chaotic, and I’m thinking, you’re a family of four with a staff of 12. Like, how difficult can this be, right? But then you catch yourself and realize, it’s not up for me to judge.

To her, her life is chaotic. And honestly, none of us know what’s going on behind the scenes. So I think empathy is one of those soft skills that is just underappreciated and it’s harder because yes, it can be harder to have empathetic with people whose lives seem like they’re easy, but it’s not. Their lives are complex. Forget about image. think again, another misconception is a lot of people think that they’re

their stresses that they’re caught up in their image. It’s often not, it’s, I’ve found most often their stress was how do I keep this ship afloat in every way, shape or form? How do I keep my kids happy and healthy? How do I not lose all the material goods that we have and have been blessed with? But how do we not lose that? Like I found that to be the number one stress that.

And I was a part of that in a way because as their photographer, I was a big part of their image to their outer world. And actually what I saw that I said it had less to do with image and more to do with how do I keep this ship afloat? And I don’t care what your socioeconomic status is, that’s a fear all of us can relate to. And we should have empathy for that. So I would say empathy is the best skill that we can have.

I love that. Well, you talked earlier about branding and I want to talk about that a little bit more. And I think that people do make decisions by the visuals that they see. So what should the re the branding reflect that would make someone who’s affluent feel comfortable?

I think this gets a little more complicated in the industry of design industry, I think, because as a designer, you have a style and you want to exude your style. And this is where it’s critically important that you attract clients that are your ideal clients. Not that you only design in one style because you probably have a range of flexibility and expanded skill set. mean, as a photographer, felt the same way. However,

The answer to your question is in some way your branding has to, they have to see themselves in your branding. And if it’s not that they’re seeing themselves in the style of the home, they have to see that you’re capable of capturing them, right? They have to have full confidence and understanding even if their desired style is a little different than they would see. They have to see themselves in you.

And I think this is what, again, most businesses do backwards because we tend to want to market what we want to say. We tend to want to push out to the world how we want to look, but it’s not about us. It needs to be about the ideal clients that you want to attract. they should, and I even write down the practicality of a website and something I always point out to my clients is that when people come to your website,

they’re giving you maybe three seconds of their attention. When they land on that website, that opening image has to be relatable to them, right? If they land on it, like you have to know your clientele. If you’re putting out images, if the initial image is far more formal than the lifestyle of the people you’re serving, let’s say you’re in a Montana, Wyoming, lakeside environment, like that’s the vibe.

that people need to see themselves in instantly. And if they don’t see it instantly, they bounce. So they’re not gonna give you a whole lot of time to scroll. I’ll give you an example in another industry that I think really makes this obvious is how often, I work with a lot of people in the financial industry, bookkeepers, financial planners, et cetera. And so often you go to their website, one client in particular reminds me that they worked with small businesses or,

in the industrial small businesses. And you go to their website and the opening image is of a boardroom. Like that is not a relatable image to your customer, right? So we changed the image to being like an image of a clearly a four person and a manager like walking in a factory, right? So the customer can immediately feel and see themselves in the imagery.

which has a lot to do with the initial branding. Of course as photographer, I’m sensitive to that. Next is the instant words, what I call a standout statement. What are the first three to nine words that somebody’s gonna read? It’s different than a slogan and a headline. It’s your statement. What are the first three to nine words that they’re going to read on your website in all your marketing materials that they are gonna say in their head, my gosh, you’re speaking to me, right?

The only way you can come up with that three to nine word sentence is if you truly understand what your ideal client is thinking in their heads and they’re just not verbalizing. You didn’t do the work. So to me, that’s what branding is all about. It’s about them. It’s not about the image and their look and the brand that we wanna put out. It’s what look, brand and image is appealing to the clients that we wanna attract.

I think that’s an important shift for people to understand that because we all have visual cues that we respond to. And I know that we all have that thing. We walk in someplace and we know this is where we want to be. It’s a lovely spot. And as designers, we have to really think about the fact that we have to quit thinking about ourselves so much.

And comfort even becomes more important in uncomfortable times, right? I mean, it’s just that instant feeling of comfort.

Sure. What are these luxury buyers motivated by today?

Well, the important thing to do with that question is today, right? Because today, well, tomorrow’s a different day. Nowadays, I was spoke at an event recently last month and at the request of the organization, I did a different segment in my keynote than I usually do and I got very practical, also interior designers, but I got really practical and gave them seven tips. Like here are the seven tips to think about today. But I don’t hold me to this next month.

because the world is changing so quick. But I say right now, and I literally just this morning released the latest edition of my LinkedIn newsletter, which is called Diamond Edge on this topic. So it’s fresh on my mind, which is assuredness, right? So I’d say right now today, what they’re motivated by is assuredness, consistency, feeling like you’re aligned with their values. Like these are really uncertain times. So they are

Assuring, and I keep saying to be, actually my number one tip when I spoke to this audience of designers was believe that they have money to spend. The worst thing you can do right now is get caught up in this idea that nobody’s spending money. It’s not true, and it has never been true, and it will never be true. There’s always somebody who has money to spend.

which is also another one of those tips I refer to as the silver lining audience. Like there’s always some segment of your current audience or an audience out there that you haven’t tapped into that even in the most challenging times is doing well. There’s always somebody, there’s money flowing somewhere in the world. It doesn’t become stagnant. So sometimes we have to get creative and figure out where that is. But I think it serves no one any good to get stuck in the mindset that, my gosh, nobody’s spending money. I better buckle down and.

you know, cancel all my vacations, right? It doesn’t do your psyche any good. So if you believe, particularly the affluent clientele, they’re far less likely to get frozen. They have a long ways to go before they’re gonna be broke, and they know that. So if you believe fundamentally there’s money to be spent, then you can look at the emotional obstacles. And I think one of the biggest emotional obstacles right now for people, even those that have money to spend are,

is the sense of assuredness that wherever they spend their money is going to be well spent. So the article I wrote this, or I released this morning was actually relating that to the fear of disappointment. Right, so. Sure. And when the emotions are heightened, and it’s not that there’s less money, it’s just that the emotions are heightened in uncertain times. So there becomes an increased fear of disappointment. Like I’m almost afraid to book that trip, because I’m afraid it’s not gonna live up to my expectations, which I need so badly.

Mmm.

dealing with a disappointment is even worse. And I think you can relate that to almost any situation. Like, you know, I really want to redesign the living room and I’ve got them, you yeah, I’ll come up with the money, I’ll spend the money. But if this doesn’t go well, I don’t know that I can take another hit, right? I don’t know if my emotions can take another hit. That’s where people are coming from. So people sometimes get frozen, not from not wanting to spend money, but frozen.

in the fear of disappointment that things aren’t gonna measure up to their lives, become, life just becomes more fragile when our emotions are ramped up. So I think right now today, you can motivate clients by really assuring them that they’re in good hands, by being more consistent than you’ve ever been in your clients’ lives. Like follow up, be a few steps ahead.

because any lapse in consistency is gonna send up a red flag.

The experience has to be one of the biggest things that you’re focusing on as a designer. It’s not about the design as much as it is how they work with you and how they feel about you.

And it’s a long haul when you’re in your work. It’s a long haul.

Is there anything else you would say that they’re thinking about during these current economic and political times, which are very turbulent? Yeah.

I’m seeing a lot more hesitation. I think it’s important to understand that the decision process may be longer than the past, may be longer than you like. They’re pausing more. And again, try to get it out of your head that it is a concern about money. It’s probably more a concern about carefulness, about the fear of disappointment. I just find

And again, when you strip it down, it makes sense. In uncertain times, everything matters more. Right? So the emotions are magnified. So I find everybody’s taking the decision processes longer. When money is flowing and the world is jolly, like people are practically throwing money at you and it flows really quick. So one of the things that happens in an uncertain world and things with so much going on in the…

as well as the world, that you’ll find the buying cycle, decision cycle starts slowing down. And again, it’s not that they’re not going to spend the money, they’re being more careful because everything matters more. So be patient, which isn’t always easy. And it’s certainly not easy as a small business to be patient when you got bills to pay and you got cashflow. And the hardest thing to, I often remind people that it’s harsh to say, but your money issues are not their problem.

And I say it harshly because the worst thing you can do is start coming across impatient, controlling, pushing to people because that again, particularly this clientele, they’re reading the energy. And if they feel that they back up even further. So just be understanding and empathetic with the hesitation and just know that your buying cycle and decision cycle is probably gonna be longer.

Well, that’s good to know. Maybe not like what here. They need to know it. What do think the biggest mistake is that service providers make when approaching these very discerning clientele?

Biggest mistake. I’m not gonna go through your emotional realm and to say that, and actually I refer to it as the diamond edge, which is also the name of my newsletter, diamond is the icon of my business, so I use the term a lot. But it does give you an edge. It gives you an edge up. And what I mean by that is your understanding of why you wanna serve this clientele that’s bigger than the money. Again.

Very intuitive clientele, very perceptive clientele. If they feel like you’re in it for the money, they feel like you’re working with them because you think it’s the easiest way for your, you know, the roads are paved with gold or what have you, that’s what turns them off. So the best thing you can do is get in touch with, to me it’s bigger than your why. You know, people talk about know your why. I think this is even bigger than that.

I mean, the question directly is why this clientele for you? Because they’re not easy, right? You’re not choosing the easiest route by being a designer, by being self-employed, by working with a luxury buyer. You are not choosing the easy route. So why? Why would you, right? And I think it’s really important to get in touch with the real answer to that question for yourself.

Mm-hmm.

Because if you don’t, the reason it’s a mistake not to is that if you don’t, you’re not gonna come across as sincere as you need to. And again, as we were saying earlier, they love sincerity. They love potential in people. And for me, I was very clear when I made the, when it became clear to me that I was meant to serve a luxury clientele, it was just as clear to me in that moment.

my diamond edge, which at 23, I didn’t have kids for many, you know, several or five years later after that, but at 23 years old, I realized inside myself that my diamond edge, my reason for putting up with all the circumstances that would come along with serving this clientele was because I wanted to give my future kids a better start in life than what I had. And I felt that in my bones and in my gut.

Not that my childhood wasn’t horrible, it just was very lower middle class. I was a shy kid. I was frightened by the world. I didn’t know what potential I had and I didn’t grow up in an environment that was showing me any options. I wanted to give my future kids options. And I can look back now and say, okay, I accomplished that goal. All three of my kids had a very different start in life, which they’re aware of and I make sure that they understand that.

my past, where I came from, what I started with. I always joke about like the raw material I started with. You know, their raw material was not so bad. And that was my diamond edge. And that’s, to me, that’s what got me up in the morning. It got me through the difficult client because it wasn’t just putting up with them. wasn’t just dealing with, there was a bigger reason. The bigger reason was I’m willing to do what it takes so that my kids have a different start in life than what I had.

So I think it’s a mistake to not get fully in touch with why this clientele, why are you not, you’re not choosing the easy road. You better be clear as to why otherwise you’re going to get burnt out or you’re just going to be fighting an uphill battle.

Sure. Well, that’s a good point. And we tell our clients to do that. They don’t need to understand their why. Just in running their business, why are they doing that? Because running a business is not easy.

No, it’s not. And that’s a myth, right? That’s, I mean, my second book, as you know, is called The Self-Employed Life. And that’s a myth I unveil, right? Because especially when the book was released in 2021, there so many people choosing self-employment. I was having a blast asking people like, why’d you become self-employed? And they’re like, well, I wanted to control my life and control my destiny and control the hours I worked. And I’m like, great, how’s that going for you?

Right? It’s amazing how many people think, I own my own business. I’m going to have all this control. Like, yeah, right. How’s that going for you? You know, so if you don’t think about your why, like why you’re in business, why you chose to be designer and why this clientele, if you’re not clear on the reasons that’s bigger than the money, it’s going to be stress.

for less money.

So so true. Well, let’s talk about one of the frustrations and one of the frustrations and I know I had this happen for me too when I was a designer is that I would work with really really affluent people and Not all of them would refer me and that was frustrating Yeah, because you if you want more of those people then you want them to refer so why is that? Yeah, I’m getting those referrals

It’s an absolute predictable stage of business, right? You go, you know, in the beginning, like we were saying earlier, people are rallying behind you and supporting you and seeing more in you than you see in yourself. And then you become successful and everybody goes crickets. There’s a few reasons. One is, and I think this is something that you can overcome, which is they don’t think you need the work, right? There’s a way that people start.

When you achieve the success you were striving for, there’s a way that you start coming across as if you don’t need the work. that’s where, just ask. Let your clients know that you still have more capacity and it doesn’t have to be desperation. I use the word capacity a lot, because it could be, you could have create, you could create more capacity in your business because you hired someone or that you incorporated better systems. So you might be able to, you have capacity to do more design work than you did before.

So let your clients know that you have more capacity. It doesn’t come across as desperation. It’s like you’ve changed things in your business or you’re really, I often nowadays also speak to the fact that I’m open to so much more work now than I may have been in the past because I don’t have kids at home. Like I have far less restrictions in my life than I’ve had for many years of my career. So bring it on. Like so I’m actually open to more work.

you had to let people know the energy of that. And it’s not neediness. I think the worst you can do, and I’m sorry if I offend anybody, but that LinkedIn profile frame that you can say, hashtag open for work.

No, need to see that. Take

that off like it’s just horrible because that feels like desperation. letting people know that you have capacity for more work and ask for the referrals, even if you’re driving the Mercedes, because that’s the problem. When you start bearing the symbols of success, people think you don’t need to work anymore. And the other thing I think this relates to designers in particular, it affected me as a photographer, is that in as much as you have a style, you have to let your clients know that

whatever you do for their friends is not going to look like what you did for them. And this was really critical for me because I designed and created my clients holiday cards. And I worked with a clientele that sent out a thousand holiday cards to their closest friends. So we would produce tens of thousands of cards a year. And they were wildly circulating all over not only just the towns that I worked in, but the level of

this clientele is a pretty small world. So you realize that you have clients in connection all over the world. So your cards, my cards were circulating. had to let, I found my clients stop referring me for fear that sort of like no one wants to show up at a gala and another woman’s wearing the same dress. So assure your clients that you have the creative capacity again to.

I

be unique for everybody they might refer you to. In fact, so much so that you’re going to take that into consideration. We were so aware of the cards and the designs that we did for, like if I knew people that knew each other, I would tell them, we need to do something different because so and so did something similar. Right, so whether it’s the wording or the design, like I was literally managing to make sure, metaphorically, nobody showed up at the gala with the same dress.

Hmm.

So I think one of the reasons why people don’t refer you is they’re afraid that you are their trusted resource and it does get to a point where they don’t wanna share you. You can overcome it to a bit and the other part of it is just also just accept it. Also accept your good fortune. I was grateful that people wanted to own me so much they wouldn’t share me. It’s frustrating as a business, but kind of sweet. know, when I went to parties and…

Mm-hmm.

the host, their hostess would grab my arm and drag me around the party. And you they would always introduce me as their photographer. Oh, this is our photographer. You know the holiday cards you get from us? He’s the one that created them. Like dragging me. Anytime somebody called me their photographer, what a blessing and honor that was. That meant they felt, they had a sense of ownership over me. Sometimes they don’t wanna share that. And I also accepted that as just part of the clientele.

I’ll add one other reason they don’t and that is because they don’t want you to make a mistake for their client, for their friends. And even though you did a great job for them, they would never want to refer someone that would embarrass them. maybe it was just a fear and maybe it’s irrational. It doesn’t matter. They have that. And then I did have one client that wanted to take full credit for the job as if he did it.

Yeah. yeah.

So you have about all of these.

I think that’s so, to me the scariest thing in the world is to refer a hairstylist. Like, oh my God, it’s such a risk, right? You might love the way that person does your hair, referring that to somebody else is a real, I’m always really hesitant to recommend a hairstylist, because that’s a big risk. Same idea though, I love that you’re saying that, but here’s something else, what can you do with that? When you receive that referral from somebody, and you’re working with Mrs. Jones now, Mrs. Smith referred you to Mrs. Jones,

When you’re working with Mrs. Jones, please go back to Mrs. Smith and let her know how well it’s going. Right? Yeah. Right? Always go back to the client that referred you and give them the comfort of knowing how well it’s going. Because they did go out on the line for you by referring you. I love that you brought that up.

It’s.

great.

Well, and I love what you’re also saying here in a way at the very beginning of the conversation today, you talked about what I view as patronage because in the old many, many decades ago and hundreds of years ago, people used to support the artists because they wanted to see them be successful. And so that patronage is something that the affluent will do. They love to help people succeed.

And you could become a victim of your own success. That’s what I’m saying. that’s where, you know, and what I mean by that is that just, it’s an expected stage that all that patronage they offered you made you successful. And then they just, forget that they don’t see you in that patronage position anymore. And let’s add to this, and I think this is so critical. Please don’t ever forget those people who built your business in the first place. That’s why I believe

Strongly every business needs to have a practice where there are benefits to being a past client that new clients don’t get. We were saying earlier how, you know, changing customer relationships to customer bonds. This is another, the rest of the world is giving deals to new customers. Don’t be that person. You can’t when you’re serving this clientele.

actually have rewards for being in existing clients. We had things built in. We had benefits and privileges that were not marketed. They weren’t hooks to get clients. But once a client became a client, we said, know, now that you’re in our inner circle, here’s something you can expect. Like, and one of them was a way of scheduling. I had an eight week waiting list for 15 years. So once somebody became a client, we let them know that we would be in, the next time they went to a session,

we’ll be in touch with them 10 to 12 weeks ahead of time. We kept our existing clients ahead of the waiting list, which is why the waiting list got so long, because we always filled it first with the existing clients. So new clients really had to wait. There were very few slots. More than half of my business every year were existing clients, about 70%. So we only had 30 % of the capacity available to new clients. So it was an up-stuy down business model from most businesses.

So it’s just so important, don’t forget those patrons that supported you. Treat them differently and better than even new clients.

Great idea. That’s so good. What are some of the ways we can take the friction from the process of serving our clients? How can we be better at serving?

Please do, first of all, because friction, think, is the number one reason any of us leave anything. And so you’re in particular this clientele, like, if anything’s challenging, they’re out. So how can you make making appointments easier? I look back at my photography career, and it was kind of, it was pre-online schedulers. And again, and this gets tricky because we’re in such a high touch business, In your industry as well as mine, very high touch industry, just.

working with this clientele is extremely high touch. And we think of it as being really personal. But personal is also understanding the lifestyles of the people that you serve. And I used to look, I used to track the time of day that my clients would pay their invoices. And it was often like 2 a.m. And the most active day was Tuesdays. then, so if you start unpacking this psychology, they all have weekend homes.

real

They all have beach houses or lake house. So they’re away for the weekends. They get back Monday’s crazy. Tuesday’s the first time they’re gonna get down to doing any business. By the time they get their kids in bed, get settled down, it’s 2 a.m. and they’re sitting down and paying bills. So if personal, to some personal might mean an in-person transaction, but to the client, personal means that you have the system set up that they can do that at 2 a.m.

Even making appointments, like I would probably leverage, like in my coaching business today, we do everything with their online scheduler. I work with people who want easy control and access to taking care of their own schedule. And I tell all my coaching clients, like, get things booked, but I know who I work with. I work with busy, high achieving people. If you need to cancel last minute, you have the online access to do that, right? Because if there’s a reason they have to cancel or postpone, it’s probably a last minute.

reason that they’re a crisis they’re dealing with, don’t make them take the time to email you and then it takes you two hours to get back to them, give them access. So I think we all have to look at all the places in our businesses, every single touch point and figure out how can we make it more frictionless. And don’t think about the high touch business you’re in just as…

being face to face, sometimes the most high touch thing you can do for somebody is to make their life easy. And people leverage technology nowadays to make their life easy. So scheduling, payments, decisions, that’s what I could, we switched to what we called online viewing galleries of our proofs. We switched that in like 2005, like way before the technology was available, way before.

anybody in the photography industry would think of doing that. And we did it because it was obvious to me, after 9-11, were just work restrictions on people. Everybody was working like twice the job. And that was pre-recession, right? So even in 2005, a couple years later, the recession comes. I just saw the writing on the wall. It was getting harder and harder to get people to come in together.

to make decisions on the portraits they wanted to put on display. So I looked at how can I make it easier? We started putting their galleries online, giving them the time at home, husbands and wives side by side to make the choices. And then I would meet with usually just one of them to make the final choices, but at least the husbands and wives got to make those choices because it was increasingly becoming obvious it was impossible to get husbands and wives together.

And then I also looked at from a values perspective, I was a family photographer. Why am I making moms and dads leave their kids in the evening to come and choose photographs? They should be home talking to their kids into bed. So I felt like it was a misalignment with my values and what I was representing. So frictionless, always, always, always looking for where you can remove friction. Because friction, people bounce faster than anything else, I think, than when something’s hard. Nobody needs more challenges in their lives.

Amen. Well, this is a perfect point for you to share maybe two or three ideas, takeaways that you’d like people to remember about this conversation today.

You know, hopefully there’s been plenty of takeaways, but I’ll summarize. think what I think are really important. One is that please believe that working with this clientele is open to anyone. Like be comfortable. You do belong there. You belong in any room. So don’t let the barrier of where you came from or fear of etiquette or anything else. Don’t let any of that hold you back. It’s open to anybody. Secondly,

And so paramount and important I’d say is again, operating clean energy. You have to be clean within yourself, operating in integrity, being straightforward, knowing your diamond edge, why you’re serving this clientele that’s bigger than the money. Do that inner work so that you, collectively I refer to that as clean energy. Like to me it’s like just clean energy when you are confident that you are in integrity.

Your values are clear, you know what you stand for, you know why this clientele is important to you, why you’re fighting for them. When you have answered all those things within yourself, you show up cleanly and in clean energy and they read that and they’re very attracted to it. And it’s clean energy because there’s nothing in the way, there’s no suspicions, doubts, anything in the way. And last and as we’ve said so many times, be empathetic. Right, I mean, all of our lives are chaotic and stressful.

I assure you money doesn’t reduce worry, it probably increases it. So be empathetic, understand that, you know, we’re all just doing the best we can, especially in uncertain times, we’re all just doing the best we can to get through the day as unscathed as we can. So I think empathy, there’s just, no, there’s no, there should be no limit to how much empathy we need to have in the world these days. So those would be my three takeaways.

Mm-hmm.

beautifully said. Well, thank you so much, Jeffrey. And I want to just tell everybody to check out your TED Talk, The Validation Paradox, and also go to Amazon and purchase this book, Sell to the Rich. Great book. And it has been a delight to see you again. And thank you so much for taking the time today.

My pleasure, always a pleasure to hang out with you.